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Post by penjady on Apr 7, 2011 14:23:33 GMT -5
Do the Apache have a written language? I ask this because I see hyphenated words and names without a translation. Short answer. No. Long answer. Yes. There is a linguist working with the Mescalero Apache Tribe on their language program and have completed a "dictionary" of sorts. I say no because the language has lots of dialects and, I will call them "tsss" or "tlllhhh" sounds that are hard to write down. I have been told that it is also hard to learn. You have to grow up speaking it, the dialects, to be able to use it. That is the trouble with trying to keep the language alive. I write out the language the way I hear it but it does not match what the "dictionary" writes. After saying it a few times, then I can see how it can be written there. Let me give you an example: Apache word for horse.... Lii English would pronounce it: like (bruce) lee Apache Pronounced... lllthee' Its a rolling "L" sound. Now it gets rather tedious, but not to Apache speakers, to say "my" "yours" "them" "those three" "our three" "a lot" etc. So when speaking the language, those come to play a lot. Lets break down an Apache Name: Kaatenaye, Warm Springs chief. Kaa'= arrow or bullet Ta' ee' na'= None. Gone. Etc. So kaatenaye litterly means... No arrows. Or bullets. Now if I were to use his name when speaking of him: I would say, kaataeenan. So when we see a name of an apache written.. it takes a while to determine what the name is because we would have to try to break it down because the language is not written. Now if we were so fortunate to have someone say it as it should be said, the different dialects would be able determine what the name says and make it easier. Azariquelch- This name unfortunately can't be broke down because it needs to be said out aloud. Make sense? |
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xframe
Junior Member
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Post by xframe on Apr 7, 2011 15:39:16 GMT -5
penjadyThank you for this awesome example/lesson  I really enjoyed it and yes I think it made sense, at least for me!
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Post by coeurrouge on Apr 7, 2011 16:05:15 GMT -5
Apache language remember me Vietnamese language. Hard to learn, speak and understand because of all the accent sound. Because western languages use the tongue and Vietnamese use the throat to make sound.
But the Vietnamese is the only asiatic language written with a latin alphabet.
They have sound like ng (=ngueu in french), nh (=gn as compagnon) and 6-7 accent like ã (=a.a).
But with vocabulary Vietnamese could be easy to write and read because grammar and conjugation are simples.
Written apache language sound like french, spanish, italian and others latin language.
I do not know if it's possible, but it could maybe posssible to use the same alphabet than vietnamese or to be inspired of it.
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Post by kayitah on Apr 7, 2011 16:39:19 GMT -5
Is there a language learning program (digital) available in Chiricahua or Western Apache? So far I have only found Navajo (which is the dialect that is closest to Northern Tonto) and Jicarilla. I have bought a program in Navajo, and it's pretty fascinating and a lot of fun to learn!
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Post by bobby on Apr 7, 2011 21:18:33 GMT -5
There’s a plenty of linguistic sources you can look at to learn more about syntax, grammar, spelling, and use of Apache languages. Here are some examples you may find interesting: Dorothy Bray [ed.] 1998, Western Apache-English Dictionary: A Community-Generated Bilingual Dictionary Edgar Perry [ed.] 1972, Western Apache dictionary / compiled by staff of the White Mountain Apache Culture Center Here’s an excellent internet source where you can find not only Mescalero and Chiricahua stories in indigenous languages and English translation, but also literal translation with linguistic notes, so you can actually see how the differently sentences are constructed and how the meaning is conveyed: etext.virginia.edu/apache/ChiMesc2.htmlFinally, I encourage you to check the works of a linguistic anthropologist, Keith Basso, especially “Western Apache language and culture: essays in linguistic anthropology” (1990) and “Wisdom Sits in Places: Landscape and Language Among the Western Apache” (1996) to see how the language is tied to the landscape and moral knowledge, and how it is used today. |
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Post by jeroen on Apr 8, 2011 13:18:03 GMT -5
A question to those speaking Chiricahua, it is stated that in the movie "The Missing" the people speak true old time Chiricahua... is this correct and if so, does the translation a good idea about what is actually said?
Thanks...
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xframe
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by xframe on Apr 8, 2011 14:04:56 GMT -5
A question to those speaking Chiricahua, it is stated that in the movie "The Missing" the people speak true old time Chiricahua... is this correct and if so, does the translation a good idea about what is actually said? Thanks... Funny that you ask this Joeren. When I watched the movie two years back I believe, I searched for reviews at the internet and found a forum were a couple of people talked especially about the native language parts. There was one German women and she stated that she is involved in Apache language research. A lot things she said seemed to be true, so she made a kinda impression to me. But at the end she said something bad about the original language in that movie. I can't remeber if she said that the translation into english was totally bad, or that even the Chiricahua's just were kidding around while talking to each other. I tried already to find the page again and went through 10 google pages and can'T find it anymore ...arghhh  But yeah, long story cut short. I would love to get also information about how proper the Native speach really is in that movie!?  |
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Post by bobby on Apr 8, 2011 17:19:38 GMT -5
I do not speak Chiricahua, but... I know that Berle Kanseah (grandson of Jasper Kanseah), council member and language preservationist and Chiricahua linguist Elbys Hugar (a great-granddaughter of Cochise) intended as technical advisers for the Ron Howard film "The Missing". More infos: www.cinemareview.com/production.asp?prodid=2295www.bluecorncomics.com/missing.htmand Elbys Hugar on YouTube: Berle Kanseah, Jasper Kanseah Jr's son, Jasper Kanseah's grandson (ca 1948) Attachments:
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Post by Second on Apr 8, 2011 21:42:27 GMT -5
Hello Penjady! How are you? My name is Siggy Second Jumper.
Are you from Mescalero. My family lives in Second Canyon.
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Post by penjady on Apr 23, 2011 0:49:39 GMT -5
A question to those speaking Chiricahua, it is stated that in the movie "The Missing" the people speak true old time Chiricahua... is this correct and if so, does the translation a good idea about what is actually said? Thanks... Yes. Chiricahua was spoken. As to call it "Old" time is questionable but I will say that the older Chiricahuas speak the language, rather more descriptive than the norm. I have heard a old tape, made early 1900's i would guess. The language is still the same and a lot could be made out. But there is a few "never heard it said that way". As for the translations in the Movie, they are enough to satisfy the listener/watcher. The Chiricahua language is descriptive enough to us but to try to let you, for example, know what it means, it is rather difficult to explain. Let me use another word as an example... Turkey. Apache word for turkey- Keedischishi. An english speaker would take it for that one word. However, an Apache would break it down. Keh= foot. Di= it/this Chishi= chap/rough. Keh-di-chishi= rough foot. A turkey has rough feet hence their name. So you can see they rather long descriptions for one word. If the movie, "The Missing" were to describe what the Apache said it true meaning, it would take the whole video screen. So the translations are enough to the watcher. Another movie that will have the Chiricahua language is an upcoming movie, Cowboys and Aliens. It will have the language, singing and dancing in it. It is, of course, a Hollywood movie so there is other stuff other than apache (cowboys and aliens). Olivia Wilde, Adam Beach and Raoul Trujillo will be speaking the language plus the other apaches in the film. It is real apache spoken. Again, the translations will be short and sweet but it can be understood to us all. What is nice about this movie is that real apaches from Mescalero were cast in certain parts of the movie to keep it "legit". Descendents of Fatty, Geronimo, Chee, Perico, Eclode, Naiche, Kaydahzinne, etc are in this movie. I have not seen the final clip so I can't say for certain how much apache is in it versus The Missing but it will be there for sure. |
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Post by penjady on Apr 23, 2011 0:58:20 GMT -5
Interview with Roberto Orci, writer and producer of Cowboys and Aliens.
Q: How about the portrayal of the Apaches and sort of their culture? I mean, just – I'm a big Old West buff and just – it's a real amazing thing, just to see these guys looking so period accurate.
Orci: We got some great consultants. There's obviously Apache around here. A lot of the people we have working are from around here. And in getting Apache consultants, we actually augmented the Apache story to be even more – I don't want to say sensitive – not only better for the story, but something I think the Apache will be proud of.
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Post by mcm1954 on Apr 28, 2011 14:28:44 GMT -5
Hello,
We are trying to locate Oliver Enjady, consultant on Cowboys and Aliens.
We need to record some more authentic dialogue in post production, and we would like to use the same consultant who was used on the set last year.
Do you know how we can contact him?
Thank you.
Marilyn McCoppen
Editor
415-662-5205
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Post by penjady on Jul 19, 2011 12:31:34 GMT -5
Movie comes out next Friday, July 29th! This is a small story on the Apache language in the movie.
COWBOYS AND ALIENS
Drawing From History
The American Indians depicted in the story are Chiricahua Apache, who by 1886 numbered less than three-dozen men, women and children. Nonetheless, under the leadership of Geronimo, this small group waged one of the most powerful resistances to the continued Mexican- and U.S.-led incursions into their land. Those who weren’t killed were forcibly removed from their lands, and relocated or imprisoned on the other side of the country, where many of them perished.
For Cowboys & Aliens, the filmmakers wanted the representation of American Indians to be as historically and culturally accurate as possible. For information about the Chiricahua, the team turned to New Mexico State University scholar SCOTT RUSHFORTH and Oliver Enjady, an Apache from the Mescalero Apache reservation.
The filmmakers knew that they wanted their interpretations to be respectful and authentic. Rushforth, who consulted with producers Howard and Grazer on The Missing, and Enjady were invaluable resources to the production. The consultants offered their advice on everything from traditional American Indian ceremonies to local garb and wiki-ups—the thatched huts that Chiricahua women made from brush, leaves and rushes. The men consulted on everything from the script to set, prop and costume design…down to the choice of horses for the Indians. They advised on the intricacies of the war dance and the singing of the song in the wiki-up when Jake takes medicine to remember who he is and what’s happened to him. This song was borrowed from and performed by the Mescalero.
Enjady was the primary liaison between the Mescalero and the production, and he felt a responsibility to his people to make sure the film’s representation of them was as accurate as possible. Indeed, in addition to the Mescalero he brought to work as dancers and extras in the film, he brought along four Medicine People, tribal leaders.
The war dance ceremony, with the cast and dozens of Mescalero singing and dancing around the fire, was shot over several nights in the New Mexico desert. The Mescalero designed the ceremonies, the dances and the songs. While it’s a somber ceremony, the music and the dance are both lively.
Rushforth and Enjady also run Ndé Bizaa, the Mescalero Apache language program that works to keep the language and culture alive. Raoul Trujillo, the actor cast to play Chief Black Knife, is actually Apache but didn’t speak the language when production began. Trujillo worked tirelessly with digital sound files Enjady and Rushforth had created to perfect his diction and accent. Commends Enjady: “He really cared to get it right.”
Enjady’s help encompassed all aspects of the character of Chief Black Knife. “He helped in the making of the chief, in what the chief has to embody,” commends Trujillo. “Every time I went into a scene, I’d have a list in my head of aspects of the character Oliver gave me that rooted him in harmony, balance, trust and benevolence. I let that creep into my body and my performance.”
“I was very honored that what we brought helped the project,” says Enjady. He and Rushforth were pleased to see early suggestions about changes to the script come to life before the cameras. In preproduction, Enjady and Rushforth had conversations with the filmmakers about how Ella might interact with the Apaches when she, Jake, Dolarhyde and the others are taken prisoners by the Indians. They suggested, in keeping with her character, that she reveal that she can speak Apache and they even gave the filmmakers some lines she could say. “I thought it was forgotten,” says Enjady of the conversation they’d had months before, “then, all of a sudden, she was saying what we thought she should say.”
In addition to inviting Mescalero from Southern New Mexico, the production cast American Indians from all over the United States. They found that it was quite difficult to secure people who can ride a horse bareback at full run through the middle of the desert, and after a long casting call, many American Indian nations were represented.
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Post by kayitah on Aug 1, 2011 15:15:36 GMT -5
I have finally found José First among the prisoners. Ever since I stumbled over the group image at Mount Vernon Barracks I've been wondering who the man named "José" is... www.nmai.si.edu/searchcollections/item.aspx?irn=305673&partyid=565&src=1-2Since José Second has been (tentatively) identified before as the man with the cap in the Fly photographs, this can only be José First. Another strong argument can be made that he's posing with fellow scouts Charlie and Astoyeh... Attachments:
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Post by naiches2 on Aug 1, 2011 15:48:39 GMT -5
I'll agree with identefication. Jose First wasn't at Canon de los Embudos with Greonimo's group because he was a scout.
Men with Jose are Askadodelges (Charlie) and Astoey (Ben)
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