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Post by jeroen on Feb 23, 2011 3:26:34 GMT -5
I agree with Kayitah, I am not sure of Ahnandia either... Second, the Coonie and Dahteste image I found on www.chiricahua-apache.com, perhaps they can help you further... |
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Post by kayitah on Feb 24, 2011 18:48:40 GMT -5
Second, This man is often presented as Laziyah, but I have strong doubts about that. Because, on photo of warriors who surrendered with Geronimo, he never seemed to appear. On photo of warriors of Chihuahua, the only warrior (it is my thought) who look like this man, seems to be your ancestor José Second. Do you think I am right? I share your impression that it is José Second (the man identified as Seeltoe in the Fort Marion photographs). Nose, mouth and cheeks seem to fit. It would make sense since he wears a medicine cap, something only a powerful man would do. But I guess the only way to find out if the man with the cap isn't Laziyah is to find another man looking like Laziyah on the Fly photographs... |
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Post by naiches2 on Feb 26, 2011 16:36:35 GMT -5
Seeltoe and Jose Second are different men. Jose Second indian name was Itsa dit sa. He was married to a Warm Springs Apache name perhaps Juana. They had a daughter named Kukah. Both were taken to Cuba as servants. Jose and Chiricahu Jim were allowed to go to Mescalero in 94 to capture horses for the soldiers. Horses were captured and sent but both men remained in Mescalero. Jose served as a medicine man while in Mescalero. He remarried to a Mescalero woman, name unknown. Had three sons. His son Manuel married May Peso. I can few new info about Jose Second: 1. His indian name is Itsan-Itsan (from Ruth McDonald Boyer , Narcissus Duffy Gayton, Apache Mothers and Daughters: Four Generations of a Family, p.111). 2. Name: Jose Second Spouse: Carabuda Second Birth: abt 1867 (!!!) Residence: city, Otero, New Mexico (from U.S. Indian Census Schedules, 1885-1940) |
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Post by Second on Mar 13, 2011 13:44:44 GMT -5
Hello everyone, I just recvd an ISBN for my book and I have entered the last phase of publishing. My book is titled Second Jumper, searching for his bloodline. Written by Sigfried R. Second-Jumper.
It has taken me 5 yrs to write it. It starts out with the surrendering of the Chiricahuas and their journey to Florida as prisoners of war. While in Florida, my great grandparents were separated from the bulk of the Tribe and shipped to Cuba. An event witnessed by other prisoners, and recorded in their oral history and songs.
Also recorded and photographed by my family are my great grandparent’s arrival in Cuba, their struggles, sacrifices and accomplishments. Some of my great grandparent’s descendents began migrating to Florida, settling on the outskirts of the Florida Everglades. It was there that I discovered a Miccosukee Indian camp tucked deep in the swamps. Little did I know I was meeting the remnants of the only Unconquered Nation, The Florida Seminoles. In time I learned to master the art of breaking in horses, wrestling alligators, followed by 15 yrs of dancing and singing among them. These events were captured and will be shown with never before seen photographs.
Through their encouragement, I along with my family set out on a trip across country, in search of our long lost Apache relatives. A long journey that started in St. Augustine, FL, Oklahoma, Arizona, ended at the Mescalero Apache Reservation in NM. Upon arrival at Mescalero, I was welcomed and accepted by ex-prisoners of war, the Chiricahuas and ultimately my long lost relatives. Unaware of my past tribal history, I was inaugurated into the medicine circle as a singer for the Chiricahua Crown Dancers. It was there, that I have and continue to learn the traditional ways of the Chiricahuas. After many years of loosing members and traditions, we all decided to record and preserve our ways along with our daily activities for future generations. For the first time ever, the reader will enter into the sacred tepee of the Crown dancers and learned what takes place prior to ceremonies. All of it has been done with the consent of all members.
When the Seminoles learned that I was recording these stories, they asked me to include theirs as well. Some of these tales and photographs have been kept by members of both groups for decades as family treasures. I am honored to have been trusted to write them as they were told to me. All stories were reviewed by all participants prior to publishing to assure that they are told as they would want their great grandchildren to hear them.
Unlike many or most books written about these two groups, this one is done from within. As a result, the participants felt comfortable revealing stories long suppress by fear and mistrust. There is only half a page of references and over 300 pages of the real stories of the Tigers of the Human race, the Chiricahua Apaches and the Only Unconquered Nation, the Florida Seminoles.
I have dedicated my book to future Chiricahua and Seminole descendents but it really pertains to all humans as preserving their ancestral ways is just as important.
I will keep you all posted as soon as my book is available.
Sincerely,
Siggy Jumper
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Post by naiches2 on Apr 3, 2011 8:58:03 GMT -5
Mithlo, say who is this, please? First picture is from Florida, second is from the photo with Chatto's scouts.  |
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Post by penjady on Apr 3, 2011 17:34:17 GMT -5
Mithlo, say who is this, please? First picture is from Florida, second is from the photo with Chatto's scouts. IMO your person is Astoyeh... (Benjamin) He served as a scout along with Chatto, Tsedikizen, Coonie, etc. Served in the 12th at Fort Marion and the 7th at Fort Sill.  After Fort Sill, he went to Mescalero. In your picture, bottom person is Micky Free and middle left is Tsedikizen, IMo. |
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Post by naiches2 on Apr 3, 2011 18:52:34 GMT -5
 You are know all about Apaches. I'm drop... OK, who are men with Astoyeh? Attachments:
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Post by kayitah on Apr 4, 2011 16:40:28 GMT -5
could this be the same man? and if so, who is he? Attachments:
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Post by kayitah on Apr 4, 2011 16:46:35 GMT -5
Thanks a lot for the identification of Astoyeh, Mithlo. Here's another one of him... Attachments:
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Post by Mithlo on Apr 5, 2011 18:22:35 GMT -5
Sorry Kayitah, it wasn't me who "identified" him as Astoyeh. As of now, I will remain undecided. All the photo's show same man, Yes, a scout along with Chatto and others, Yes, Astoyeh.......I'm not sure. Astoyeh was a relative of my family, he had a full sister, Tsis-tohn, said to look very much alike. Biete (Victor) was born in 1874 and had a sister called "Mary", born in 1875. They were full brother and sister. "Mary" died of TB back east as apache prisoner-of-war. Victor and Mary had a much older(10 years) half-brother, Mithlo, Mythlo, born in 1864, (Mothloth- by his own spelling). In Arizona, he had the name Thurman, yet as a prisoner-of-war was given the name Lawrence. Lawrence, Mary, and Victor had the same mother, and her sister was the mother of Astoyeh and Tsis-tohn. "Cousin's" (Brothers and sisters to Apache). Confused yet? Good, here comes more! Astoyeh had 2 wives, Gey-ath-dahn (means Untied), the daughter of Nana. She was born in 1857 and never had children.His other wife, Ilth-too-da,born in 1855, was a daughter of Mangus Coloradas. They had 3 children, 1 child-name unknown, died at Mount Vernon, a son Ben Astoyeh died here in 1901, and a daughter Lena Astoyeh died here in 1900. Ilth-too-da also died here in 1904 of TB. Astoyeh was indeed a scout along with Chatto and others, but not inlisted by that name. It is said here that he had "gone by" and was "known by" 3 or 4 different names way back in those days. The other names have long been forgotten over the years, except the one name, Astoyeh. He spent time in a state jail or prison here in the early 1900's for supplying booze to the Apache here. His heavy drinking alway's got him into a lot of trouble. Astoyeh and Gey-ath-dahn went to Mescalero with the large group in 1913.......................................... Amen! Thanks a lot for the identification of Astoyeh, Mithlo. Here's another one of him... |
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Post by kayitah on Apr 6, 2011 3:52:22 GMT -5
Sorry Kayitah, it wasn't me who "identified" him as Astoyeh. As of now, I will remain undecided. All the photo's show same man, Yes, a scout along with Chatto and others, Yes, Astoyeh.......I'm not sure. Astoyeh was a relative of my family, he had a full sister, Tsis-tohn, said to look very much alike. Biete (Victor) was born in 1874 and had a sister called "Mary", born in 1875. They were full brother and sister. "Mary" died of TB back east as apache prisoner-of-war. Victor and Mary had a much older(10 years) half-brother, Mithlo, Mythlo, born in 1864, (Mothloth- by his own spelling). In Arizona, he had the name Thurman, yet as a prisoner-of-war was given the name Lawrence. Lawrence, Mary, and Victor had the same mother, and her sister was the mother of Astoyeh and Tsis-tohn. "Cousin's" (Brothers and sisters to Apache). Confused yet? Good, here comes more! Astoyeh had 2 wives, Gey-ath-dahn (means Untied), the daughter of Nana. She was born in 1857 and never had children.His other wife, Ilth-too-da,born in 1855, was a daughter of Mangus Coloradas. They had 3 children, 1 child-name unknown, died at Mount Vernon, a son Ben Astoyeh died here in 1901, and a daughter Lena Astoyeh died here in 1900. Ilth-too-da also died here in 1904 of TB. Astoyeh was indeed a scout along with Chatto and others, but not inlisted by that name. It is said here that he had "gone by" and was "known by" 3 or 4 different names way back in those days. The other names have long been forgotten over the years, except the one name, Astoyeh. He spent time in a state jail or prison here in the early 1900's for supplying booze to the Apache here. His heavy drinking alway's got him into a lot of trouble. Astoyeh and Gey-ath-dahn went to Mescalero with the large group in 1913.......................................... Amen! Thanks a lot for the identification of Astoyeh, Mithlo. Here's another one of him... Sorry...  many thanks to penjady  |
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Post by kayitah on Apr 6, 2011 16:03:29 GMT -5
Sorry Kayitah, it wasn't me who "identified" him as Astoyeh. As of now, I will remain undecided. All the photo's show same man, Yes, a scout along with Chatto and others, Yes, Astoyeh.......I'm not sure. Astoyeh was a relative of my family, he had a full sister, Tsis-tohn, said to look very much alike. Biete (Victor) was born in 1874 and had a sister called "Mary", born in 1875. They were full brother and sister. "Mary" died of TB back east as apache prisoner-of-war. Victor and Mary had a much older(10 years) half-brother, Mithlo, Mythlo, born in 1864, (Mothloth- by his own spelling). In Arizona, he had the name Thurman, yet as a prisoner-of-war was given the name Lawrence. Lawrence, Mary, and Victor had the same mother, and her sister was the mother of Astoyeh and Tsis-tohn. "Cousin's" (Brothers and sisters to Apache). Confused yet? Good, here comes more! Astoyeh had 2 wives, Gey-ath-dahn (means Untied), the daughter of Nana. She was born in 1857 and never had children.His other wife, Ilth-too-da,born in 1855, was a daughter of Mangus Coloradas. They had 3 children, 1 child-name unknown, died at Mount Vernon, a son Ben Astoyeh died here in 1901, and a daughter Lena Astoyeh died here in 1900. Ilth-too-da also died here in 1904 of TB. Astoyeh was indeed a scout along with Chatto and others, but not inlisted by that name. It is said here that he had "gone by" and was "known by" 3 or 4 different names way back in those days. The other names have long been forgotten over the years, except the one name, Astoyeh. He spent time in a state jail or prison here in the early 1900's for supplying booze to the Apache here. His heavy drinking alway's got him into a lot of trouble. Astoyeh and Gey-ath-dahn went to Mescalero with the large group in 1913.......................................... Amen! Thanks a lot for the identification of Astoyeh, Mithlo. Here's another one of him... Very interesting, thanks Mithlo. Is "Tsis-tohn" Zele's wife Tzes-ton? |
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Post by Mithlo on Apr 6, 2011 16:17:10 GMT -5
Yes, same woman, but the marrage lasted only a few years, no children though. Sorry Kayitah, it wasn't me who "identified" him as Astoyeh. As of now, I will remain undecided. All the photo's show same man, Yes, a scout along with Chatto and others, Yes, Astoyeh.......I'm not sure. Astoyeh was a relative of my family, he had a full sister, Tsis-tohn, said to look very much alike. Biete (Victor) was born in 1874 and had a sister called "Mary", born in 1875. They were full brother and sister. "Mary" died of TB back east as apache prisoner-of-war. Victor and Mary had a much older(10 years) half-brother, Mithlo, Mythlo, born in 1864, (Mothloth- by his own spelling). In Arizona, he had the name Thurman, yet as a prisoner-of-war was given the name Lawrence. Lawrence, Mary, and Victor had the same mother, and her sister was the mother of Astoyeh and Tsis-tohn. "Cousin's" (Brothers and sisters to Apache). Confused yet? Good, here comes more! Astoyeh had 2 wives, Gey-ath-dahn (means Untied), the daughter of Nana. She was born in 1857 and never had children.His other wife, Ilth-too-da,born in 1855, was a daughter of Mangus Coloradas. They had 3 children, 1 child-name unknown, died at Mount Vernon, a son Ben Astoyeh died here in 1901, and a daughter Lena Astoyeh died here in 1900. Ilth-too-da also died here in 1904 of TB. Astoyeh was indeed a scout along with Chatto and others, but not inlisted by that name. It is said here that he had "gone by" and was "known by" 3 or 4 different names way back in those days. The other names have long been forgotten over the years, except the one name, Astoyeh. He spent time in a state jail or prison here in the early 1900's for supplying booze to the Apache here. His heavy drinking alway's got him into a lot of trouble. Astoyeh and Gey-ath-dahn went to Mescalero with the large group in 1913.......................................... Amen! Very interesting, thanks Mithlo. Is "Tsis-tohn" Zele's wife Tzes-ton? |
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Post by naiches2 on Apr 6, 2011 17:21:56 GMT -5
Tsis-tohn (1868-1956) in 1910-1920s was wife of Oliver Bitchait (1871-1924).
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Post by lgarcia on Apr 7, 2011 12:41:47 GMT -5
Do the Apache have a written language?
I ask this because I see hyphenated words and names without a translation.
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You are know all about Apaches. I'm drop...
many thanks to penjady 