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Post by kayitah on Feb 26, 2011 7:15:29 GMT -5
images of the other man. are they definetely chiricahuas or could they be western apache. hard to distinguish them. Attachments:
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Post by Second on Feb 26, 2011 14:01:05 GMT -5
Hello guys, the two Chiricahua warriors on page 7 are Jose Second and Jose First. Second is sitting down. Picture taken when Jose Second was 35 in San Carlos.
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Post by kayitah on Feb 26, 2011 14:14:22 GMT -5
Are you sure? Sorry, but to me neither man looks like José Second (if José Second is the man previously identified as Laziyah and Seeltoe, respectively)
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Post by Second on Feb 27, 2011 22:32:12 GMT -5
All I can say is that my family believes that the picture of the two Chiricahuas are Jose Second and First. I dont know who they resemble but that is what we have grown up believing.
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Post by Second on Feb 27, 2011 22:44:09 GMT -5
I can also say that the pictures of Victorio (The one you described as being a Mohave Chief)and Lozen (the one with Geronimo's group with train and described as Perico's wife) are believed to be as historically described by their descendents living in Mescalero. In other words the picture of Victorio is Victorio and the picture of Lozen sitting with Geronimo's group is Lozen. I have grown up believing that and will always believe it. Respectfully Second
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Post by jeroen on Mar 1, 2011 8:24:56 GMT -5
If the two men are indeed Jose Second and Jose First (although I have never seen these two identified as such, and although said to be Chiricahuas, I have also seen them as Western Apaches), than the man previously identified as Laziyah is certainly not Jose Second. So for now, I stick with the Laziyah identification. Although I certainly respect the thoughts and opinions of the family and the descendents, I still doubt very much that Lozen was part of the Geronimo/Naiche group and pictured in the train photo... On the other hand, I agree with you that the Mohave chief id of the Victorio portrait has not convinced me either...
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Post by coeurrouge on Mar 1, 2011 15:37:04 GMT -5
If he is not Laziyah either, I still say on my idea, he could be Tah-Ni-Toe. Close friend of Naiche, married with E-Dood-Lah, borned around 1858, he was certainly older than Naiche. On the photo the man with the medecine hat seems to be at middle age and always near of atelnietze, first cousin of Naiche.
So I concluded that he could be Tah-Ni-Toe
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Post by jeroen on Mar 1, 2011 16:28:17 GMT -5
true... could be...
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Post by jeroen on Mar 1, 2011 16:49:25 GMT -5
If he was born in 1858 he was in fact younger than Naiche, or at least about the same age... in my opinion the man with the cap is certainly older than Naiche, at least by a few years. In fact, in addition to Tahnitoe and Laziyah, he also could be Mohtsos or Kilthdigai, since we have not yet established who the one man in the train photo is, nor the unknown man in the Fort Houston photo (see Naiche and Geronimo threads)
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Post by coeurrouge on Mar 1, 2011 16:55:44 GMT -5
It is his wife who was borned on 1858. I read that John Tahnitoe was borned on 1855. For me the man couldn't be Moh-tsos or kildighai because the man identified, often as Kayitah (around 30 years old in 1886), is in fact Tsinolthos (around 20 years old in 1886) for me. Look at my identifications of the Last Band. My conclusion Moh-tsos and Kildighai were ont the train photo.
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Post by kayitah on Mar 1, 2011 18:55:36 GMT -5
I, too, certainly respect the thoughts and opinions of the family, descendants, tribal members, and experts (around here). At the same time I don't think that the "Victorio" photo actually shows him, nor do I think that Lozen is on the train image. These identifications were made by Betzinez and Kaywaykla when they were old men and when there were no high-resolution scans of the photographs possible. The original glass plates are rather small and many times don't allow a clear identification. It's not an easy thing at all to identify the same people on photographs by different photographers, taken under different circumstances and years apart.
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Post by naiches2 on Mar 2, 2011 5:20:46 GMT -5
I, too, certainly respect the thoughts and opinions of the family, descendants, tribal members, and experts (around here). At the same time I don't think that the "Victorio" photo actually shows him, nor do I think that Lozen is on the train image. These identifications were made by Betzinez and Kaywaykla when they were old men and when there were no high-resolution scans of the photographs possible. The original glass plates are rather small and many times don't allow a clear identification. It's not an easy thing at all to identify the same people over on photographs by different photographers, taken under different circumstances and years apart. Well said, kayitah! I'm a little tired from the endless debate over these topics: Who was born first, egg or chicken. Without more information we can not say it clearly.
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Post by kayitah on Mar 6, 2011 12:42:47 GMT -5
I was able to identify a few of the Chiricahuas at Fort Bowie, just before they were transported to Holbrook. I come to these identifications mostly by comparing the clothing with that in the train images. Tissnolthos is an obvious choice because of the silver conch on his headband. Perico wears the same hat in both pictures, and you can also see the white trousers and, more importantly, the low/loose fitting moccasins like on the train image. Yahnozha's identification is also based on his clothing - white trousers, gray-toned shirt, patterned headband(s), and either no moccasins or very low ones. Nah-bay is easily recognizable when we compare him with the train image. Attachments:
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Post by jeroen on Mar 7, 2011 17:37:45 GMT -5
I think you are spot on Kayitah! I was not sure about Perico, but you have convincing arguments! Despite Coeurrouge's reasoning, I too am convinced the man with the silver conch on his headband is in fact Tissnolthos.
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Post by jeroen on Mar 13, 2011 7:43:26 GMT -5
I know we have been revolving around the same questions and identifications over and over again, still in my opinion we are closing the gap bit by bit... I have tried to compare this man with all of Chihuahua's men in the Fort Marion photos, and also with the Naiche/Geronimo band in the train photo, but have not found any resemblance... what do you guys think?
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