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Post by Dietmar on Dec 8, 2010 11:38:29 GMT -5
We had this photo earlier in the "Agent Twiss" thread. It shows allegedly the children of chiefs American Horse and High Wolf, both Oglala. I wonder if the photograph is labeled correctly. Does anyone know if and how these Lakotas are connected to American Horse or High Wolf?  These individuals are said to be in the photo: girls: Daisy Glade, Lucy Day and Mary Bridgeman boys: Bear Don´t Scare, Lone Hill, Singer and Frank Twiss. After studying other Carlisle photos, I believe the IDs of the boys are (left to right): Walter Red Face (sitting far left) Amos Lone Hill (sitting 3rd from left) Bennett Singer (sitting 4th from left) Frank Twiss (sitting far right) Obviously among the children of American Horse should be Robert American Horse, but he´s not. And what about Bear Don´t Scare? [UPDATE March 2015: wrong identification of Walter Red Face. In the photo sitting far left is Guy American Horse, identified in Captain Pratt´s list as Guy Burt.] |
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Post by jinlian on Dec 8, 2010 14:27:37 GMT -5
Dietmar, Some time ago I raised more or less this same question in the AH thread. In the specifics, there was a comparison between the photo you've just posted and the one attached, whose label says "Samuel, son of High Bear (left) and "Guy, son of American Horse" (right" working in Carlisle's bakeries. "Samuel" looks a lot like "Amos Lone Hill" and "Guy"'s likeness is quite similar to "Walter Red Face"'s. According to Carlisle records, Guy American Horse was one of the school's first students, returing home in 1882 and died before 1890. American Horse sent two boys and a girl of his household to Carlisle in 1879. According to C. Eastman, the boys were Samuel (to be identified with Tom? See the discussion in the AH thread) and Robert, and the girl was "Maggie". However,, Joe American Horse ( in "The Real All Americans") says that the three were Bear Don't Scare (seventeen at the time) who was after named "Guy", Cut Ears better known as "Robert", who was in fact AH's nephew (brother's son and then "son"?) and Maggie , whose status (daughter or niece) is still unclear. Hope this helps. Regards, J.  |
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Post by Dietmar on Dec 9, 2010 16:55:18 GMT -5
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Post by jinlian on Dec 10, 2010 5:24:42 GMT -5
Well, that Bear Don't Scare and Guy were in fact one and the same individual is a statement by Joe American Horse and I believe it may be given some authority to him on this (quote: ""Bear Don't Scare (Guy) was an elder son of about seventeen, Cut Ears (Robert) was apparently a nephew of about eighteen, although Pratt believed he too was a son""). If I'm not mistaken, "Walter Red Face"''s name comes from Donovine Sprague's "Rosebud Sioux" (and in the specifics, from the description of the 1879 Choate photo of the Carlisle students). One additional remark: in Sprague's book there's no mention of either Bear Don't Scare or Guy American Horse, while in Carlisle's records of the Sioux students enrolled at the school (http://home.epix.net/~landis/sioux.html) there's no "Walter Red Face", but instead it is listed a "Guy American Horse" (also mentioned in this 1891 document: home.epix.net/~landis/plentyhorses.html) . Personally speaking, I don't think Guy was also known as "Walter Red Face", but there was a simple inaccuracy in the description of the 1879 Choate group photo. The Samuel High Bear -Amos Lone Hill issue is completely different, since they were two distinct individuals, both listed in the Carlisle records and, for that matter, in the Choate photo description as well. Regards. |
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Post by dickmill on Jan 16, 2011 14:54:38 GMT -5
The U.S. Army Heritage Collections Online has a headline "WHAT'S NEW IN OUR ONLINE COLLECTION" (but no date on when the "new" was added.) It includes "Carlisle Indian Industrial School Photograph Collection" -- www.ahco.army.mil/site/index.jsp. One of the photos is of the 1879 Sioux girls' class -- I've often seen the boys, but not the girls. It says "identified", but I see no ID's. Does anyone have ID's for this photo? There are many other great photos at good resolution. I don't immediately see if or how the originals can be downloaded, but the "print" option brings up the high-res photos in PDF format. Is this on-line collection really "new", or has it been there for some time? |
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Post by dickmill on Jan 16, 2011 15:00:57 GMT -5
For some reason the above link works on my computer, but not from this link -- try www.ahco.army.mil |
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 19, 2011 9:51:35 GMT -5
Dick, I found this awsome collection around the end of last year. I haven´t discovered how to save the photos as JPGs yet, but the PDFs are great. I think I got the IDs for the 1879 group photos from the Beinecke Library site: "Dakota Indian Girls from Rosebud and Pine Ridge Sioux Agencies, Dakota. The first party to arrive at the Indian Industrial School, Carlisle, Pennsylvania, October 6, 1879. Reading from left to right: 1. Miss S. A. Mather (of St. Augustine, Florida) 2. Emma Black Crow 3. Horace Black Crow 4. Maggie American Horse 5. Rebecca Big Star 6. Ida Kills Plenty 7. Ruth Big Head 8. Dora Brave Bull 9. Zonie McKenzie 10. Nellie Black Twin 11. Hattie Long Wolf 12. Rose Long Face 13. Nancy Shooting Cat 14. Agnes White Cow 15. Julia Good Voice 16. Lulu Bridgeman 17. Lizzie Glode 18. Alice Lone Bear 19. Mary Iron on the Head 20. Winnie Pawnee 21. Hope Blue Teeth 22. Stella Chasing Hawk 23. Maud Swift Bear 24. Pollock Spotted Tail 25. Lucy Day 26. Sarah Tackett 27. Charles Tackett (Interpreter)" In some cases it is hard to tell how to read left to right, because some are standing or sitting very close, but I tried to put down the IDs onto the photo:  |
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Post by dickmill on Jan 19, 2011 10:03:09 GMT -5
#24 -- Pollock Spotted Tail, was, of course, a son of Spotted Tail at Carlisle along with William, Max, and Oliver. I don't think that's him in the photo  In the boys' photo, the ID's are left to right, regardless of sitting, standing, or row. It's probably similar for the girls, but the last 3 next to Charlie Tackett on the right are almost in a vertical line, making it difficult unless there's a clear ID on one or two of the girls. "Sarah Tackett" -- that's Spotted Tail's daughter "Red Road" -- I've never seen her as Sarah before. |
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 19, 2011 10:14:29 GMT -5
The most difficult case for me is Hattie Long Wolf and Rose Long Face. Who´s more to the left?
Red Road was married to Charles Tackett, making him Spotted Tail´s son-in-law. There are other photos of her, one by Stanley Morrow.
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Post by naiches2 on Jan 19, 2011 14:09:12 GMT -5
For some reason the above link works on my computer, but not from this link -- try www.ahco.army.milA lot of thanks, dickmill. I found here few nice photos of Apache children. |
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Post by dickmill on Feb 5, 2011 17:13:48 GMT -5
Dietmar -- Do you remember in what Beinecke Library collection you saw the ID's for the 1879 Carlisle girls? I have several copies of Pratt's documents from the collection and thought I might locate the original.
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Post by Dietmar on Feb 6, 2011 7:34:59 GMT -5
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Post by dickmill on Feb 6, 2011 12:09:39 GMT -5
Dietmar: Many thanks. Studying very carefully the order the people are listed vs. the labels on the photo, I think Hattie/Rose and Hope/Winnie should be reversed. What do you think?
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Post by Dietmar on Feb 7, 2011 11:03:34 GMT -5
Dick,
the IDs in the photo are only my interpretation of Pratt´s list. I could be wrong. Even the list itself could be incorrect. I don´t know if Pratt´s memory was infallable and even in the boys group photograph he mixed up the order in some cases.
However, I think the girl I rated as Winnie sits more to the left than Hope, so I would believe I have it right.
I´m not so sure about Hattie/Rose, because they pretty much are in one vertical line. The reason I think Hattie stands behind is in my opinion she resembles the portraits I have seen of Oglala Chief Long Wolf.
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Post by gregor on Jul 8, 2014 13:04:09 GMT -5
Hi, I have this wonderful picture of 3 Oglala Chiefs (Little Wound, Big Road and Grass) visiting Carlisle about 1889. Who are the students?  Thanx for information. Gregor |
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