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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 30, 2022 15:14:31 GMT -5
Much thanks to Jeroen Vogtschmidt for his paintings of invented portraits about Chiricahua's people. Again carefull, it is still my guess Mahko's family from him to his great grandchildren mahko family.pdf (1.38 MB)
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 27, 2022 10:45:14 GMT -5
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 25, 2022 16:10:20 GMT -5
Not know much about Nah-dozinne or Nazee. He was considered as a capitan of Cochise in 1872 and was certainly born circa 1840. In 1884, he was single and soon after certainly marrid two wives, I think : Bah-na-geay (born c.1865) and Ee-lold-lahm (born c.1860) maybe two sisters. He had at least one boy Price born in 1891 who did not live a long time. Nah-dozinne came to mescalero in 1913. View AttachmentView AttachmentIn 1907 Yanyego was in San Carlos Reservation census, n°755 in the San Carlos Apache and named Zanygo age 55 In 1910 USA census, Nah-dozinne was uncle of Zhonne (Calvin) which could mean that Nah-dozinne was a younger brother of U-go-hun mother of Zhonne and mother-in-law of Naiche.
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 24, 2022 14:43:59 GMT -5
Thanks to the very interesting website apachéria.es Beas-ketla (aka Sherman Curley) and his wife Djataize (aka Helen Curley) Attachments:
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 24, 2022 6:36:00 GMT -5
Naithlotonz and Gokliz in Mount Vernon Attachments:
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 24, 2022 5:22:28 GMT -5
the chief and his fellows at Mount Vernon, Alabama, maybe when they arrived. The mother of Cecil Haozous was certainly among the young women. I think Zhante was the second woman right to Eskiminzin and the little girl hold by the chief, I think chs was Anajohe (Anna Baylish-Logan) Attachments:
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 22, 2022 9:49:57 GMT -5
Is somebody could say when (year) this photo was taken? And better could identify the men on this?
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 22, 2022 4:38:22 GMT -5
4.5.Fear, Shame, Desperation and Surrender.
Why Naiche fled while he had given his word and sincerity was the higher principle transmitted by his father? All the forty who escaped had made their own decision. Alcohol and the escape of the leaders Nat-cul-baye, Goyakla and mainly Naiche, encouraged them but their conviction to flee was already in their mind. The separation of some family members with strong bounds demonstrated how each made independantly his decision, Tsinolthos did not follow his uncles Kla-esh and Ulzana but escaped with Naiche; Yahe-chul escaped while his older brother Tsinah surrendered and Da-ke-yah, son-in-law of Goyakla, surrendered and did not follow his father-in-law and his brother-in-law Naclede. Suspicious and nervous before the council, 25th of March, they did not like the behaviour of Nantan Lupan, his ultimatum was unacceptable for much of them and Goyakla waiting his time told some arguments which certainly encouraged to act. For all of them the primary factor of their decision was Fear. And the whisky transformed this fear to a great scare. The night of 27th of March, all the outbreakers drunk a lot. It was not a drink to accompagny a feast, a ceremony or during a raid to distress. This drink was a binge of People very uncertain of their future losing definitively their way of life and fearing disappearance as a tribe. History proved to the Chiricahuas that when they were in the total mercy of their enemy, men were quickly executed or imprisoned and women and children became slaves and very few succeeded to escape their slavery. It was a drink to forget their scary situation.
Naiche explained their state of mind three years later to Crook: "Naiche: When we left there, as far as I was concerned I didn’t know anything; I didn’t know how to work, I didn’t know how to dig up roots, or break ground or break rock, and I thought I wouldn’t like it. I was afraid I wouldn’t like to work. All of us thought that way. General Crook: How did you come to leave this night? Naiche: I was afraid I was going to be taken somewhere I didn’t like; to someplace I didn’t know. I thought all who were taken away would die. Since then I have found out different. I have worked much since then. Nobody said anything to me that night; I worked it out in my own mind. General Crook: Didn’t the Indians talk about among themselves? Naiche: We talked to each other about it. We were drunk. General Crook: Why did you get drunk? Naiche: Because there are a lot of whisky there and we wanted a drink, and took it. The other didn’t want to go out. I don’t know why the others didn’t know of it; I thought they all did."
It is clear that for Naiche personal experiences had deeply influenced his decision. The execution and mutilation of his grandfather while he was disarmed in a blue soldier’s camp; his other “father” hung after he came with peace intention, disarmed, in a blue soldier’s camp were traumatics for Naiche. He always believed his own life, in 1861, was spared only because of a card game. The young chief, since this time, distrusted all the blue soldiers. And Naiche, like most of the Chiricahuas, thought that a warrior especially the chiefs, being disarmed in a US Army’s camp, finished executed. Naiche knew Crook had promised a 100$ reward for each head of renegade his scouts would get. Along his life Naiche heard his father that a journey Far East would cost the life of the warrior would do it. So, it was why Goci refused always invitation to go at Washington. The older brother of Naiche, Taza, did not refuse but proved right the prediction of the father. In fact, Naiche, disliking Crook and distruthfull of the US Army, did not believe the two years promise of Crook. Was he wrong? He also was afraid that going East would mean death for him and his people. Was he wrong? After ten years during he assumed a charge not whished and not educated for, as best he could under the shadows of his dead father and grandfather, Naiche surely had enough of that, was feared and maybe thought he failed. So, the young Chokonen’s chief lost complety control of himself during twenty-hours. Like the others, Naiche drunk very much that night. Alcohol made him frightened. Then he drunk more and more and passed out in the ground during the night, in the view of everybody, losing his dignity as a chief.
The next morning, early, Nantan Lupan left with Bourke. When they passed near the Chiricahua’s camp, they saw a complete mess. Several warriors showed themselves still drunk. This early departure added suspicion among the outbreakers. Naiche still intoxicated wake up during the morning. Apparently when their chief could, the band moved ten miles north at noon, to join the pack’s camp of Maus. They moved dispersed but in alert and the warriors were most of them drunk. They did not allow Maus to approach them, so the lieutenant stayed behind them. Even Maus’s troops had destroy Tribolett’s remaining whisky, the outbreakers and especially Naiche continued to drain their whisky stock. That evening, 28th of March, Naiche had arguments with his principal spouse since years, E-clah-eh. The result was that Naiche shot his wife and injured her in the leg. Why Naiche shot his wife? Some said he thought she was flirting with another warrior, others explained that E-clah-eh did not want to follow her husband in the Sierra Madre and wanted to see again her young son. It was maybe that but I believed it was a marital quarrel between a wife who scolded her drunken’s husband for putting shame on his family and maybe reproached Naiche to flirt with the young Ha-o-zinne.
Naiche apparently stopped drinking and thougth during the night of his next step. Educated with three high principles of dignity, loyalty and to take care of his family, Naiche could have thought, he failed. Completely drunk, he had lost his dignity when he passed out. While since 1876, less or more, he succeeded loyaly to maintain unity of his band, in 1886 the Chokonens were cut in half. One part in the reservation without chief and the second part would become POW because they followed him and Kla-esch. He was educated to take care of his immediate family which Naiche had always done, but this time his sisters and his mother lived at Fort Apache without him to take care, his older wife with his two sons were captives at Fort Bowie and he just had shot his confident and beloved spouse front of his daughter. This night, I think, Naiche decided to escape because he distrusted Crook, was scared about their future and ashamed about his last twenty-hour’s behaviour. It seemed that during the night talkings were exchanged between people who were sober or just hang over, but too much men were still drunk to escape at this time. Early, 29th of March, to lure Maus and winning time to prepare their outbreak, Naiche and Goyakla broke camp before the soldiers and moved ahead the column like they were hurry to surrender. But just two miles before the border, they stopped just after less than ten miles of march. It was during that day, then the majority sober, they had serious talkings of escaping the soldiers. Disagreed with this plan, Kla-esch and most of the warriors who had their family at Fort Bowie separated from Naiche perhaps E-clah-eh and her daughter followed Kla-esch. With his brother Ulzana, they made camp one mile northeast of Naiche.
I think Naiche and Goyakla prepared their escape, waiting the night and that all their followers would be ready to do it. Historians wrote that the drinking led to an irrational decision in each head of the final renegades, but I did not agree. Alcohol had its influence but each made a logical decision. Most of them had no or few relative prisoners at Fort Bowie. The only surprise was the young girl Leo-shanne who separated from his parents, Nezegochin and Ni-yah, certainly by mistake and followed her grandfather Nat-cul-baye. Nat-cul-baye, who spent most of his life in Mexico, had a wife, his son Alchintoyeh with him; Beshe had his wife U-go-hun and his youngest daughter Ha-o-zinne beside him; the brothers La-zi-yah and Nah-bay were together with their wife and for Nah-bay, his daughter; Kilthdigay who had his wife killed in august 1885, was single; Hunlonah, Nednhi preferred to stay with his uncle Beshe than to surrender and to join his wife and child at Fort Bowie; Tsinolthos and his young wife were still together; Zhonne, single, stayed with his mother U-go-hun; Moh-tsos had his primary spouse with three children at Fort Apache; Tah-ni-toe had also his wife living in the reservation; Shoie had just learnt, if I am right, the death of his wife and was at this time single; Nezulkide never lived more than two years in a reservation during his life, was the last prominent warrior to surrender in April 1884, so it was his temper to refuse imprisonement; Yahe-chul, Naclede, Yanozha had their wife with them, so they followed Goyakla; the only family alive of Kanseah was his “uncle” Goyakla; The young boy Garditha followed his grandfather Nat-cul-baye; Ahnandia had just married Tas-de-the, living with him and had a wife at Fort Apache; Goyakla resourcefull and selfish had two wives with him Shta-she and She-gah; Atelnietze had, with him, his two wives, his child and his teenage boy Satsitnitsu and loyal to Naiche stayed with his “brother”. The only to be alone , in the group, with all his immediate family at Fort Bowie, was Naiche. It is why I think Naiche fled because also of shame. To this group the priority was to escape without notice by the scouts especially the Chiricahuas, so they took only one horse. They decided to leave, 30th of March 1886, 2:30 AM, going west. They again lured everybody, their outbreak would be discovered only at sunrise and very soon they scattered to avoid efficient pursue. This time I think the ringleader was Naiche, Goyakla was certainly glad the Chief did not respect his word, but all the next events of the renegades when they were together had the mark of Naiche. After some hours, without clear explanation, Nezulkide and Shoie changed their mind and joined alone Fort Bowie some days later. Two months later, Nezulkide would be the first Chiricahua to die in exile. After they were sure they were not pursued, the last renegades still scattered, made separatly several raids west of Fronteras to replenish their stock but mostly to get enough horses for everybody. The plan was to join in the Sierra de los Ajos to try a short rest. The fact they avoided the Sierra Madre shows that Naiche was in command. The previous year Naiche chose campsites west of the Sierra Madre and was never surprised or attacked. So, he led his little band in this same strategy. 11th of April they quitted the mountains. I think Goyakla, Nat-cul-baye, with older warriors like Beshe, La-zi-yah and Nah-bay escorted the women and children throught the mountains to reach the Azul summit in the Sierra de Azul. It would be their next camp. Needing food and stock, the rest of the warriors led by Naiche went southeast, near Bacoachi, raided Duron’s ranch and joined their women and children. With enough food and mounts, a fresh spring to quench their thirst, being on the top of the Sierra with clear view below them, Naiche ordered a week of rest. The Chief had to think about another option he could get from the Americans.
19th April, their stock reduced, the renegades left their camp. Again, while Nat-cul-baye and elders led north the women and children to the Sierra de Pinitos, Naiche and Goyakla with their warriors came down west the Sierra de Azul, between Imuris and Magdalena to reach food. This day and 23rd of April 1886, they raided two ranches, killed eight people and spared two others. They left with their plunder but got time to ambush the little force of national guards who pursued them. They killed two soldiers without casualties on their own side. After they separated, six warriors led maybe by Ischi or Atelnietze were in charge to find cattle west of the Sierra de Pinitos while Naiche and the others joined the new camp in these mountains. After the six warriors regrouped with the camp, Naiche moved his band in the eastern face about twenty-five miles of Nogales. At this time, they certainly needed ammunitions for their American guns. It meant they had to cross the border, to plunder and surely to kill Americans but also to risk some deadly fights with the blue soldiers and their Apache scouts among them maybe some Chiricahuas. The other risk was to be follow in Mexico by the scouts during their return.
Letting Nat-cul-baye, Beshe with the very young teenage boys, Alchintoyeh and Garditha, I think, to protect the women and children in the camp, Naiche and Goyakla led their men to Arizona, 26th of April. They had not fought the blue soldiers, since their escape a month ago. The plan was three days of raids in Arizona around Nogales, east to west, entering by the Santa Cruz River and returning in Mexico by the Pajarito Mountains. They were ready to ambush any pursuer. Just after crossing the border, they killed four men, few hours later they killed another man in Calabasas. Early, the next day six warriors entered this very little town and stole horses. Pursued they ambushed the civilians, wounded one man and stopped the pursuit. On the morning six miles west, they attacked and ransacked a ranch. A wife with her little baby were killed apparently by Ahnandia and a teenage girl was captured by Goyakla. Few times after, moving west they spotted the owner and a friend. The warriors killed the friend and spared the owner of the ranch and husband of the dead woman. They splitted in two groups reaching new targets before returning in Mexico, Naiche leading the main group and Goyakla the other. Naiche apparently did not find another target and certainly joined the women and children in the Sierra de Pinitos, 1st of May. Naiche was worried because blue soldier troops followed him behind the renegades since they attacked the ranch where the young girl was captured. He wanted to ambush and stop them but he needed Goyakla and his warriors.
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 18, 2022 16:17:03 GMT -5
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 18, 2022 6:49:46 GMT -5
Tahdotonn hab been a scout between may 1891 and august 1893. It is why he did not appear in the San Carlos census in 1892 and 1893. Only Zanyego appeared with her daughter in law in 1892 and 1893, and in 1894 ththree were together I found the boy and her mother in the 1888's census, page 31 of the San Carlos Apache. It could mean thaht Zanyego was among the 13 chiricahua women released by Chihuahua in April 1885. For Altsidah maybe she was page 3 on the same census in 1888 with her sister but I am not sure. I still not find them neither Gessemuday in 1889. Djataize and Zhante were with Eskiminzin.
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 17, 2022 7:56:15 GMT -5
In May 1900 a request was made by the commander of Fort SIl for the Chiricahuas : allow their relatives settled in San Carlos to join them at Fort Sill. There was a list of names and relationship. Naiche had two sisters (Zhante and Jas-tessay), a nephew (Tah-do-tonn) and a relation and her son (Ah-tsi-tah). On the previous researches we found that Zhante/Djanate (aka Julia Denton) and jas-tessay/Nasatay/Djataize (aka Helen Curley) were the daughter of Gessemuday (so the third wife of Cochise). Tah-do-toon/Tahdetunn was the grandson of Gessemuday and the son of a woman called Zanyego (Maria Denton). As I aldready wrote, I deduct that Zanyego (born c.1850) was the first daughter of Cochise and Gessemuday. Gessemuday lived with his granson untill her death in 1913. Looking the husband of Djataize (born c.1862) and Zhante (born c.1864), I think they married the Arivapai chief Eskiminzin (tag band SCL)c.1880 for Djataize and c.1884/85 for Zhante. It would explain whye they with their mother did not go to Fort Marion in 1886. Djataize had at least one son, with the chief, Howetdoan who in 1905 was still living with his grandmother Gessemuday. Howetdoan was certainly born c.1880 and i think his nickname was Roy Eskiminzin and was in San Carlos school between the exile of his father (1891 - 1894). I did not find yet if he survived after 1905 and married. Roy, I guess, right in the following photo : Eskiminzin died in 1895 and in 1898 Djataize married Sherman Curley (aka Jim Curley, Jim Kelly) a scout from the Coyotero band (Tag band CJ39, Sherman Curley died in January 1934. Djataize died after 1939 and they had no children. With Zhante, Eskiminzin had at least three daughter, Anajohe (Anna Baylish-Logan) born in San Carlos c.1888, Anuje/Najotes (Susie Baylish) born 07/12/1891 in Mount Vernon as Iske-dastlahe born 05/25/1894. See the birth records and on the photo (may 1893) I may identified Zhante on the left with Anajohe (standing) and Anuje (sitting on her mother) Zhante never married another man. She lived with her nephew untill her death 02/23/1928 from a stomach cancer like her father at similar age... Iske-dastlahe certainaly died between 1908/1909 or married in 1909 at 15 years old. Anajohe was the first to marry in 1903 with Eskehelte (tag band CF80), son of Bylas chief of Tag band F from the Coyoreto (Eastern White Mountain living in San Carlos). Bylas who was spared by the Chiricahuas thanks to Naiche in April 1882.In 1914 Eskehelte died and Anajohe, in 1915, married Hushkayonchihe (John Logan) Both still lived in 1939 (tag band CF56). Anuje married in 1907 a brother of Eskehelte named Richard Baylish (tag band CF75). Anuje died in 1919. For Zanyego and his son, it was much harder before 1906. But I think I find them. The first nickname of Tah-do-toon was certainly Big Charley from Tag band SO12 (1894-1899) and tag band SG13 (1900-1904). In 1907 Zanygo was listed as mother of SG13. Big Charley had a mother with a similar name and age than Zanyego. He had the same age of Tahdetunn. When Big Charley disappeared from the records, in 1905, he had no child (even he was married twice) and Tahdetuun appeared in 1906, he was single with in 1908 a mother named Zanyego. And he chose as American nickname Charles Denton Below Big Charley and his mother (1894 and 1901) For all those people (except Zhante) I do not find yet their names on the census, before 1893. And the Ah-tsi-tah/Altsedah and her son Delonah-gai-stanneh, I found them since 1892. There was another son born in 1893 and died in 1895. They lived in the San Carlos band in Tag SO10 untill 1899. In 1900 they joined Gessemuday and lived in tag band SH23. Delonah-gai-stanneh was born in 1888 and died apparently (or perhaps he married) in 1905. Altsedah died or quitted the tag band in 1907. Altsedah was born c.1850, so she could be a cousin of Naiche. I pleased to think she was a sister of Atelnietze or Chie. I will look for all those people in 1889 and 1888, but it will be hard I think.
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 17, 2022 5:59:58 GMT -5
Not know much about Nah-dozinne or Nazee. He was considered as a capitan of Cochise in 1872 and was certainly born circa 1840. In 1884, he was single and soon after certainly marrid two wives, I think : Bah-na-geay (born c.1865) and Ee-lold-lahm (born c.1860) maybe two sisters. He had at least one boy Price born in 1891 who did not live a long time. Nah-dozinne came to mescalero in 1913. In 1907 Yanyego was in San Carlos Reservation census, n°755 in the San Carlos Apache and named Zanygo age 55
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 16, 2022 16:00:25 GMT -5
Is there somebody know (with photo will be great) about a San Carlos Apache (possibly a scout) nicknamed Big Charley or Big Charli, born c.1868 (from tag band SO -1890's- and after SG -1900's).
I think he was a nephew of Chief Naiche by his oldest half-sister named Zanyego.
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 12, 2022 0:47:48 GMT -5
Photo 1 - looks like Trans-Mississippi and International Exposition (1898: Omaha, Neb.) Photo 2 - man is not Apache. He looks like The Great Plains Indian. I am agree with Naiche2 for photo 2, the man was maybe a Comanche or Kiowa. In photo 1 the man with the cavalry hat was Naiche (not a cousin of Geronimo but Geronimo had been married with a cousin of Naiche, She-gah who died in 1887). Photo 3: too hard to identify someone.
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Post by coeurrouge on Jul 30, 2022 12:54:12 GMT -5
Some times later we talked about the Chiricahua's relatives of Naiche who lived in San Carlos after 1886. We knew he had a nephew named Tahdotonn (later called Charles Denton) born circa 1870. Naiche had one brother, two sisters and at least two half-sisters Djataize (or Jatessay) and Zhante (or Djanate and later called Julia Denton). In San Carlos census since 1907, Tahdotonn had as mother a woman named Zanyego (later Maria Denton), born circa 1850, and Gessamuday as grandmother. So I deducted that Gessemuday was the third wife of Cochise and Zanyego their first daughter and oldest sister of Naiche.
I wonder who could be the father of Tahdotonn? In 1872 when General looked for Cochise, the first Chokonens he met were the group leading by Nah-dozinne. With him was a wife of Cochise. Why a wife of the chief lived one hundred miles of her husband in a time of war? Because, I think, she followed her oldest daughter and her husband. So I am more and more convince that Nah-dozinne was the oldest son-in-law of Cochise by marrying Zanyego circa 1868. And Tahdotonn was their son.
But Nah-dozinne was single in 1884's census and his known wives were not named Zanyego. I think I had an explanation.
We all read that Naiche lost relatives captured by Mexicans in Casas Grandes in May 1882 and in January 1883 at Satachi Falls. But we do not know their names and relationship with Naiche. In april 1885, asked by Crook, with the Chiricahuas Lieutenant Davis made a list of the Chiricahuas' prisonners in Mexico. In the list we can read that a woman at age 36 years old had been captured at Satachi Falls. Her name was written by Davis Bish-Zah-Ye-Go and I think she was the half-sister of Naiche, Zanyego. The fact Nah-dozinne was single in 1884, the written names were very similar and the estimate age also about the same, convince me. Maybe she was among the 13 women released by the Chihuahuans in April 1885 and arrived in San Carlos in September (so she could not see again her husband) or like it happened for few of them, she escaped from Mexico and went to San Carlos about 1900.
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