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Post by hreinn on Mar 19, 2012 10:37:33 GMT -5
Kingsley: Thanks for the further details of Looking Elk and Goose. Your idea about possible Wazhazha link to most of the delegates is very interesting. With your remarks + Carlo's remarks in the thread Red Fish & Elk That Bellows Walking [1], we have 4 names of "fathers" to Lone Horn: 1. Black Bull (aka. Black Buffalo) 2. Red Fish 3. Looking Elk 4. Crippled Warbonnet It would be interesting to find out how all this fits. Two independant pieces which perhaps belongs to this puzzle: a) We have Swift Bear as a father to Red Fish, from reply #9 in [1]. b) We have Wazhazha leader Quick Bear, whose father was named Shell Man, from reply #13 above. I wonder if there is any link there ? Swift Bear = Quick Bear ? Hreinn Reference: 1. amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=miniconjou1&thread=1270&page=1
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Post by hreinn on Mar 19, 2012 9:12:01 GMT -5
Kingsley: Good to see your clarification. It explains what I found strange in the original list. First, there seemed to be no Brulé representative. Second, there were listed 2 Sihasapa representatives instead of only one expected.
Is it known in more detail how Goose was able to "smuggle" himself with the delegation without any nomination or election ?
I had never before noticed this important person, the Wazhazha Brulé Looking Elk. It is always very interesting the link between Lakhota and Cheyenne. Is the connection of Looking Elk to Cheyenne known in a further detail ?
It would be interesting to see a new thread which details the individuals of the important Wazhazha band and their family relations and their influence on Lakhota history and politics, both in peace and war. A thread which would give an overview of the subject.
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Mar 18, 2012 10:52:44 GMT -5
Gregor, keep the stones rolling That is how matters advance. And I like it ! Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Mar 18, 2012 8:13:59 GMT -5
Dietmar: OK. I agree it is well established that Little Chief on the list of the delegates was the Cheyenne Little Chief. OK. Most likely it seems to be correct that Little Thunder in the photograph is the Yankton Dakota Little Thunder, but not Brulé Lakhota. After I posted reply #18 yesterday, I have seen several photographs of Yankton Dakota delegates from 1867 and many of them have the same background and carpet on the floor as the one refered to in my reply #18. See the website: www.josephmarshall.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1195793944But there is a small possibility that Little Thunder on the photograph was actually the Brulé Lakhota Little Thunder and wrongly labeled as Yankton Dakota just because most of the delegates were Yankton Dakota. Because as you wrote, there were also 2 Lower Brulés in the 1867 delegation along with the Yankton Dakotas. So perhaps the photographer or the one who labeled the photographs didn't know that few of the delegates were Brulé unlike the vast majority of the delegates who were Yankton Dakota. So there is a small change that Brulé Little Thunder was actually also a delegate. And that is perhaps the reason why Fred Werner labeled the man on the photograph as Brulé Lakhota in his detailed book. Whether or not the man on the photograph is Brulé Lakhota or Yankton Dakota. I still think the person sitting 2nd from right on the picture in reply #12 is not Lone Horn, based on the body size and the nose, as described above in reply #18. Regarding Shell Man: No one here presented a proof yet that Quick Bear and the Shell Man of Catlin were related so to list him as a son in your post is not so appropriate, or at least too soon. Yes I agree there is no proof for the link between Quick Bear and Shell Man, that is why I wrote; "perhaps". As quoted in full: Based on information in this thread, Shell Man (b.ca.1800-1815) perhaps had 3 children: It was based on reply #13 above: I wonder if there is any link to the Wazhazha leader Quick Bear, whose father was also named Shell Man. And also based on reply #15 above: I have no later reference to Shell Man. I have sometimes wondered if the Oglala warrior Shell Boy, born c. 1836 and an associate of Crazy Horse, was his son, but I have no proof of that. Maggie No Fat, photographed at Pine Ridge by ethnologist John C. Ewers, said she was Shell Man's daughter, and had a copy of the Catlin portrait in a beaded frame. Were there two different Shell Man, one Oglala and another Brulé ? Oglala Shell Man = on Catlin's drawing from 1832. Brulé Shell Man = father to the Wazhazha Brulé Quick Bear. If so, it was perhaps the Brulé Shell Man who visited Washington 1851-1852 but not the Oglala Shell Man who Catlin painted. If so, then we would have a Wazhazha Brulé Shell Man as a delegate representing the Wazhazha Brulé Scattering Bear. Just a speculation. Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Mar 17, 2012 17:08:12 GMT -5
Regarding Shell Man: It was suggested in reply #10 above by Gregor that Shell Man could be the 3rd from left in photograph in replies #10 and #12. Gregor I am sorry to say that I don't see the same. I don't find the man sitting 3rd from left looking alike the man in Catlin's drawing. But as often, people don't see the same expression in faces. Catlin's drawing from 1832 (reply #10 above) shows a man with a nose which is a little bit flattened at the end (where the air is inhaled). There are only 2 persons on the photograph (best viewed in reply #12) who have their nose a little bit flattened at the end. That is the person sitting on far right and the person sitting 3rd from right. Another features in the drawing: 1. A relatively thick upper lip. 2. Relatively long distance between the eyes 3. Relatively long distance from the eyelids to the eye brows. 4. Not broad shouldered. It is difficult to say if either is looking alike Catlin's drawing. Especially the man on the far right is very unclear. I find it convincing that Shell Boy is the son of Shell Man. Based on information in this thread, Shell Man (b.ca.1800-1815) perhaps had 3 children: 1. Shell Boy (b.ca.1836) 2. Quick Bear 3. Maggie No Fat Is more known about this family ? Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Mar 17, 2012 16:24:17 GMT -5
Here is a different view on this matter. Ever since it was proposed several years ago, that Lone Horn is the man sitting 2nd to the right in the photograph in reply #12 above. I have several times taken a look at the photograph. I always come to the same conclusion. It is not Lone Horn who is sitting 2nd from right. Because: 1. On the photograph, the man sitting 2nd from right is the shortest of those sitting. Lone Horn was not short. For example, in the picture of the Washington delegation 1875 [1] Lone Horn is standing next to the very tall Long Mandan and is not so much shorter than him. In that photograph Lone Horn is not the shortest of those standing and he is taller than the Rattling Ribs, Oglala Sitting Bull and Scalp Face. 2. The person on the photograph has a bigger and "higher" nose than Lone Horn, i.e. the nose "arises" further into the air above the face than the nose of Lone Horn. Lone Horn's nose is "closer to his face". See all known pictures of Lone Horn in the thread Lone Horn of the North [2]. (I know it is a bit awkward description due to bad English, but I hope you understand what is meant) To me the man sitting 2nd from right is the Brulé Little Thunder (from the 1855 Blue Water Creek Massacre). Photograph of Little Thunder [3]: Everything seems to fit: the body size, the nose, the forehead, cheek bones, lips and all ratios in the face between different parts in the face. The Brulé Little Thunder would be a "logical" representative of the Brulé Wazhazha Scattering Bear - the appointed headman of all Lakhotas according to the treaty in September 1851. Belonging to the same group of the Lakhota (i.e. Brulé). Perhaps the relatively old Scattering Bear didn't trust himself to take such a long travel as to Washington. I suggest that the listed Lakhota delegate Little Chief in the original post of this thread is actually the Brulé Little Thunder. The delegates of the Lakhota in this trip to Washington according to the list in the original post of this thread: The Unicorn = Lone Horn = Mnikhowozu (Miniconju) Lakhota The Little Chief The Shellman = Shell Man = Oglala Lakhota The Watchful Elk and the Goose = Sihasapa (Blackfoot) Lakhota If Little Chief is not a Brulé Lakhota, then there is missing a representative of Brulé which would mean an "unbalance" in the group. Because there would be no one from the second largest group of the Lakhota (i.e. Brulé) and there would be no one from the same group as the appointed headman of all the Lakhotas, i.e. the Brulé Scattering Bear. In Fred Werner's book "With Harney on the Blue Water - Battle of Ash Hollow, September 3, 1855" the man on the photograph is identified as Brulé Lakota Little Thunder. The source of the photograph identifies this man as Yankton Dakota Little Thunder. I trust better Fred Werner. Hreinn References: 1. Photograph of Lakhota Delegation 1875, see reply #5 in the thread 1875 Sioux delegation = www.american-tribes.com/messageboards/dietmar/1875identitfication1.jpg2. amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=miniconjou1&action=display&thread=9013. cantonasylumforinsaneindians.com/history_blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Little-Thunder-Yankton-Dakota-1867.jpg
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Post by hreinn on Jan 29, 2012 16:01:10 GMT -5
Good luck with this ambitious project. Which is in the same spirit as the "A 144 challenge". It is admirable to see how the Apache sector of this website is active. It is a classical subject when one society is attacked, whether to resist or cooperate with the invader, i.e. to be independent or not. It will be interesting to see the result of this project and see the social and political background of those two factions. Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Jan 9, 2012 18:31:48 GMT -5
Out of 5 siblings of Eagle Elk from Eagle Elk's quote in the reply above, LaDeane Miller has information about 3 of them [1]. That is 2 older sisters + 1 younger brother: 1. Red Day (b.1824) 2. Long Woman (b.1836) 3. Looking Horse (b.1845) These 5 siblings had the same grandparents as Crazy Horse 3. Their maternal grandparents were Crazy Horse's paternal grandparents, i.e. the couple Makes the Song (Crazy Horse 1) and Red Kettle. Who were parents of Pretty Feather Woman and Worm (Waglúla) (Crazy Horse 2) [1].
Long Woman married the Oglála Lakȟóta Pawnee Killer [1]. Pawnee Killer has always attracted my attention. So it is interesting to see a link between Crazy Horse and Pawnee Killer. Pawnee Killer and assuming also Long Woman (Crazy Horse's aunt) were with Crazy Horse during at least the winter 1876-1877, because Pawnee Killer's name is on the Crazy Horse's "surrender" ledger from 1877 [1]. Later I would like to write in a new thread what I have gathered about Pawnee Killer from various sources.
Looking Horse was the youngest of Eagle Elk's siblings [1]. Looking Horse was married to Yellow Woman and Blue Cloud [1, 2]. I think this Looking Horse - an Oyuhpe Oglála Lakȟóta & Crazy Horse's uncle - was the member of that name in Crazy Horse's Last Born Child (Hoksi Hakakta) warrior society. At least, Looking Horse was a last born boy of his family (but not his older brother Eagle Elk who was also a member of Hoksi Hakakta). In his Crazy Horse's book, Kingsley Bray proposed that the member of Crazy Horse's Hoksi Hakakta with the name Looking Horse was a Mnikhowozu [3, 4] who was related to the Mnikhowozu Roman Nose [3, 5]. From a footnote in Bray's book: [5] "He may have been the Looking Horse living as one of five unmarried men in Roman Nose's Miniconjou lodge at the time of the June-July census (see Spotted Tail Agency 1877 census, 46) and thus one of Roman Nose's "sons"." I think the unmarried Looking Horse listed in Roman Nose's Mnikhowozu lodge could have been a younger Looking Horse. For example, Oglála Lakȟóta Looking Horse (b.1862) who married Woman (b.1863) (Yellow Wolf's daughter) [6]. This younger Looking Horse would have been 15 years old in 1877 and most likely unmarried in 1877. Looking Horse and Woman had their first child in 1881, named Stands in Middle [6]. The listed unmarried Looking Horse in Roman Nose's lodge could not have been Eagle Elk's brother Looking Horse because: 1. In 1877, Looking Horse was 32 years old and therefore not likely to be unmarried. 2. In 1877, Looking Horse already had 2 daughters with his wife Blue Cloud; Hawk Woman (b.1872) and Holy (b.1877) and therefore most likely not unmarried in 1877 and most likely married in 1872 or earlier.
Again, I think Eagle Elk's younger brother Looking Horse was the member of that name in Crazy Horse's Last Born Child (Hoksi Hakakta) warrior society.
Hreinn
References: 1. LaDeane Miller, Families of Pine Ridge (on a CD), Descendants of Crazy Horse, Pretty Feather Woman,. 2. LaDeane Miller, Families of Pine Ridge (on a CD), Descendants of Crazy Horse, Looking Horse. 3. Kingsley Bray, Crazy Horse - A Lakota Life, University of Oklahoma Press, 2006, page 178. 4. Kingsley Bray, Crazy Horse - A Lakota Life, University of Oklahoma Press, 2006, page 363. 5. Kingsley Bray, Crazy Horse - A Lakota Life, University of Oklahoma Press, 2006, page 466, fn.17. 6. LaDeane Miller, Families of Pine Ridge (on a CD), Descendants of Red Elk, Woman.
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Post by hreinn on Dec 26, 2011 16:14:32 GMT -5
Witkola; Yes you are right. It is best to write words in as much detail as possible and as close to how they are spoken. Because in that way you are more able to preserve the language, which for example has the benefit that future people will be able to read and understand what is written today. The resources of the IPA for learning how to pronounce the sounds of the IPA characters are available online and are free. Do you have any recommended links ? I thought the spelling in the New Lakota Dictionary was the ultimate way of writing the Lakȟóta language. Do you get more comprehensive spelling with utf-8 ? Could you give an example with a word ? As an example, in the New Lakota Dictionary by Jan Ullrich from 2008 the word Lakota is written as Lakȟóta. To what standard does this text belong to ? utf-8, ISO 8859-1, Unicode or something else ? It is not difficult to imagine that after several centuries of writing the word Lakȟóta as Lakota, that the special h sound will be lost in the spoken language. When you use the software Word and Excel and choose Insert and then choose Symbol. To what standard does the symbols in Word and Excel belong to ? utf-8, ISO 8859-1, Unicode or something else ? As an example of how languages can develop through the centuries. About 1000 years ago the same language was spoken in all Nordic countries (except in Finland). Today there is a different versions in each country. But the language has changed the least in Iceland. Much because of the close fit between the writing and speaking of the language through the centuries. That is to write words as close to how they are spoken, which for example incorporates IPA characters. As I understand linguistic specialists it is unique in the world how common (non-linguistic) modern Icelanders are able to read ancient Icelandic text. As I understand it, a common (non-linguistic) modern English speaking person would not understand ancient English text. What is written today about Lakȟóta culture and language has much meaning because it is based on the old Lakȟóta oral tradition. After 1000 years, what is written today about Lakȟóta culture and language will be considered as primary sources for the old Lakȟóta oral tradition. So it matters how things are written today for the future understanding. Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Dec 24, 2011 11:05:39 GMT -5
Bringswhite; Since you are a descendant of Touch the Cloud it would be interesting to see your answers to some questions below. Some of the info above is in error Any further comments ? What is in an error ? Do you know of any connection/relation between Lone Horn and Red Fish and Elks That Bellows Walking (aka. Whistling Elk) ? [1] Was Crippled Warbonnet another name for Black Bull (aka. Black Buffalo) (Lone Horn's father) ? [2] If not, do you know of any connection of Black Bull and Lone Horn to Crippled Warbonnet ? Do you know the name of One Horn's wife (Spotted Elk's mother) ? And/or her family and band background ? Do you know the names of Black Bull's parents ? And/or their family and band background ? Any comments on whether Black Bull was Mnikĥówožu or Sičháŋğu Lakĥóta ? or both ? [3] Is it possible there existed 2 Black Bulls around the year 1800 +/- 20 years ? Can you confirm that Black Bull's wife was White Cow Woman (aka. Iron Cane) ? And her parents were the male Body Parts (Sihásapa Lakĥóta) and the female Looking Walker Woman (Hunkpatilla Oglála Lakĥóta) ? Have you heard about another name for a wife of Body Parts ? Have you heard if Looking Walker was not a name for a female but instead a name for a male ? Did Black Bull and Good Voice Woman have a daughter named Gathers Her Berries ? Do you know if Good Looking Woman (Lone Horn's sister) divorced her husband when her sister took her own life in 1845 ? So she could help in raising young Crazy Horse. A difficult and perhaps inappropriate question here: Have you heard who was considered to have more spiritual abilities (especially regarding being a clairvoyant); Good Looking Woman vs. Looks At It (aka. They Are Afraid of Her) ? Hreinn References: 1. The thread "Red Fish & Elk That Bellows Walking". amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=miniconjou1&action=display&thread=12702. Reply #8 in the thread "Red Fish & Elk That Bellows Walking". amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=miniconjou1&action=display&thread=12703. The thread "Black Bull" amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=teton&action=display&thread=1271
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Post by hreinn on Dec 15, 2011 14:32:41 GMT -5
Bringswhite; Good to see you writing here. I hope you will write more later. I find the voice of modern Lakotas missing on this website. Some are writing, but not so many. I am keen to hear what modern Lakotas say. You are right about that people have to be aware of misleading information. I have fallen into that "trap" myself. It is important to hear the voice of the modern Lakotas who either confirm, deny or challenge older written material or bring forth new information.
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Nov 10, 2011 17:52:42 GMT -5
Walksindreams: Thanks for your reply ! I'll look into it. Yes these markers go back many generations. We have examples where you can use mtDNA and Y-DNA to discriminate between people of Scandinavian vs. Celtic origin about 1000 years back in time !
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Nov 10, 2011 17:02:36 GMT -5
Walksindreams:
Since I see you know what you are talking about, I would like to ask you: Are you aware of any DNA or protein test(s) which can indicate if there was a French vs. English blood mixing with a Native American ? That is if we can see the origin of the white person (French vs. English).
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Oct 30, 2011 13:31:59 GMT -5
How was Respects Nothing related to the couple Wears The Eagle and Red Bear (reply #6 above) ?
Is it known if or how Respects Nothing was related to other Oyuhpe Oglala like: 1. Big Road ? 2. Black Fox ? 3. Flying Hawk ? 4. Kicking Bear ? 5. Red Feather ? 6. Shell Boy ? 7. Shell Man ?
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Oct 14, 2011 21:41:40 GMT -5
In reply #4 above, I take the " he" as referring to Walks Bare Foot (but not Fire Heart) (perhaps I am mistaken). LaDonna has just passed on some important information on Sihasapa chiefs and bands.
She tells me that the Fire Heart dynasty belonged to the Real Sihasapa band. John Grass's paternal grandfather, Si-chola or Bare Foot (also called Walks Bare Foot and Elk Man), who was born an Oglala, probably in the early 1790s, also belonged to this band in his adult life. Perhaps he married into the band. Another possible interpretation of the information in this thread: Since Walks Bare Foot was known to be born as Oglala Lakota. Then it is likely that Walks Bare Foot belonged to the group who split away from the Oglala Lakota and formed the Hunkpapa Lakota. Later on, Walks Bare Foot was one of the people who originally formed the Sihasapa Lakota. Therefore, it was perhaps Walks Bare Foot and his family who was the original core of the Real Sihasapa. Therefore, it was perhaps Fire Heart who married into the Sihasapa Lakota (but not Walks Bare Foot marrying into Sihasapa).When Fire Heart married to the daughter of Walks Bare Foot. As mentioned above, the first Fire Heart was born as Mnikhowozu Lakota. Since Walks Bare Foot's daughter and wife of Fire Heart belonged to Sihasapa/Real Sihasapa, just as Used As a Shield (aka. Grass 1). Then her brother Used As a Shield decided to form another band, when he had some quarrel with his brother-in-law. Instead of pushing his brother-in-law and sister out of the Sihasapa/Real Sihasapa band. So even though we associate John Grass (Grass 2) and Used As a Shield (Grass 1) with the Crow Feather Hair Ornaments band. Then originally Grass 1 belonged to the Real Sihasapa band. Hreinn
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