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Post by hreinn on Oct 14, 2022 16:33:42 GMT -5
In giving sworn testimony of January 31, 1906, relating to the allotment rights of Peter Livermont, the great grandson of Crow Feather, Red Cloud stated: "My Uncle was Crow Feather, No. 1. . . . My Mother was a sister of my Uncle Crow Feather, No. 1." When Red Cloud testified in 1906, he most likely spoke as a true Lakota in Lakota terms. If Red Cloud's testimony is viewed together with the 3 above quotes, which are all based on Lakota people (Deb is Lakota and Kingsley Bray's sources are Lakota). It seems coherent to view Red Cloud's testimony in 1906 to mean that his mother Walks As She Thinks was a "sister" (aunt or cousin) of Crow Feather, but not a biological sister.
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Post by hreinn on Oct 14, 2022 16:06:24 GMT -5
Based on the 3 quotes above, it seems that: a) Walks As She Thinks was a biological sister of Smoke b) Walks As She Thinks was a "sister" (aunt or some type of cousin) of Crow Feather
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Post by hreinn on Oct 14, 2022 15:59:37 GMT -5
hreinn, I delved a little deeper, and what I have is that Smoke (of the Tasnaheca-yuta band) and Lone Man (Kuhinyan band) married each other's sisters about the time the Kuhinyan band came back to the Oglalas in 1818 -- after twenty or so years "camping away from the circle". Smoke's sister was Walks As She Thinks.Lone Man's sister was Shell Earrings, Pankeska Owintkun. Shell Earrings was the mother of twin sons, born about 1819 or 1820, namely Big Mouth and Blue Horse. Walks As She Thinks was the mother of Red Cloud, born about 1820 or 1821. Big Mouth and his brother Blue Horse would have called Red Cloud cousin, tahansi.
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Post by hreinn on Oct 9, 2022 9:40:27 GMT -5
I've always been told that White Thunder Woman. Walks as She Thinks, White Cow Win aka Iron Cane win, and Old Chief Smoke were all siblings. Deb
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Post by hreinn on Oct 9, 2022 8:25:06 GMT -5
I have recently found an affidavit by Red Cloud in which he states the Oglala were a junior branch of the Sans Arcs, he himself being a nephew of Sans Arc chief Crow Feather. (This implies a relationship - "brothers"? - between Smoke and Crow Feather.)
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Post by hreinn on Sept 17, 2022 10:51:37 GMT -5
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Post by hreinn on Sept 17, 2022 10:38:32 GMT -5
Thanks Carlo ! I had missed or forgotten your excellent thread about the event on December 16, 1876.
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Post by hreinn on Sept 15, 2022 14:08:41 GMT -5
On December 16, 1876, a person named Red Skirt was killed by some Crows outside of Tongue River Cantonment. Was this Red Skirt an Oglala, Itazipco or Mnikhówozu ? To what tiyoshpaye did he belong to ? Was this Red Skirt related to Red Skirt who was photographed in Washington in 1875 ?
According to Nicholas Black Elk 4 (a member of Crazy Horse's Hunkpatila Oglala tiyoshpaye) in the book "The Sixth Grandfather" by DeMallie (1984 edition), pages 199-200: "As I remember, the Minneconjous and Crazy Horse's band got together and tried to make peace with the whites. We sent some delegates to the soldiers to make peace with them. Quite a bunch of Indians went with these delegates. There were fellows by the names of Drum on His Back, Gets Fat with Beef, Red Skirt and Hollow Horn, who were the delegates sent. Just as they neared the camp the bodyguards stayed behind and the four delegates went ahead. The Crows were camped near the soldiers' camp. They went into the Crow camp and they had come as friends but the Crows surrounded them and seized them. Just before this Crazy Horse had whipped the Crows and killed one of the Crow women. This husband of the woman was there and he took out his pistol and killed Gets Fat with Beef as a revenge. There was a hand-to-hand fight here. The three [remaining] delegates tried to get away to the soldier's camp, but they were all killed while fighting."
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Post by hreinn on Sept 14, 2022 11:11:31 GMT -5
To what Oglala tiyoshpaye did Stinking Bear(s) belong to ? We have 2 Stinking Bears, based on: Charlie Stinking Bear was my mother’s father. His father, also named Stinking Bear, married two sisters of Chief Standing Elk. The sisters were Northern Cheyenne and also had some Yanktonai heritage. Stinking Bear was a noted bear medicine man and used a bear paw in his healing ceremonies." Gerald One Feather Stinking Bear 1Married to 2 Northern Cheyenne women, who were sisters of Cheyenne chief Standing Elk. Father to at least 3 children: Stinking Bear 2 + Black Road + daughter who married Saves Bear. Stinking Bear 2 Also known as Charlie Stinking Bear, Charles Stinking Bear, chief Stinking Bear and Smell the Bear. Son of Stinking Bear 1 and brother of Black Road and a sister who married Saves Bear. Stinking Bear 2 was one of the Lakota sources for the book "To Kill an Eagle – Indian Views on the Last Days of Crazy Horse" by Edward Kadlecek and Mabell Kadlecek. Stinking Bear 2 said he followed Worm unnoticed when Worm went out of his camp to bury Crazy Horse in 1877. It seems that the Meany interview in 1907 above in this thread was with Stinking Bear 2. Therefore Black Road was brother to Stinking Bear 2, but not Stinking Bear 1. Based on the Meany interview with Stinking Bear:
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Post by hreinn on Aug 13, 2022 14:48:54 GMT -5
In a copy of a letter dated November 23, 1881 posted by cankpeopi on February 11, 2018 and re-posted by elvyn on August 13, 2022 in this thread. There is a reference to another letter from November 10, 1881. Is a copy of the 10th Nov. letter available ? What exactly is written in the 10th Nov. letter ?
In the letter dated November 23, 1881, Eagle Hawk is approved as a designated representative of Hunkpatila tiyoshpaye after the recent death of Worm (aka. Crazy Horse 2) who had been the chief of Hunkpatila tiyoshpaye when he died. Who was this Eagle Hawk ? Was it Eagle Hawk son of He Dog (Chankahu Han tiyoshpaye = Sore Back band) ? or Eagle Hawk son of Pawnee Killer (Tapislecha tiyoshpaye = Spleen band) ? Both Chankahu Han tiyoshpaye and Tapislecha tiyoshpaye had earlier connections to Hunkpatila tiyoshpaye, as can be read in Kingsley Bray's writings.
Is a copy available of the certificated issued by Agent Cook to Eagle Hawk ? What exactly is written in that certificate ?
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Post by hreinn on May 27, 2022 14:56:52 GMT -5
Was Ashke (wicoti ? or tiyoshpaye ?) part of the history of Wagleza Owin tiyoshpaye ? Victor Douville (conversation with KMB, May 11, 2001) stated that "part of the Orphans derived from the [Brule] Kiyuksa" band. This perhaps means a cohort (males or females) marrying in. Also the Orphans and the Wazhazhas (Conquering Bear's band) were "always together", so it is believed they are sister bands budded from a parent group. Indeed the Ashke according to Victor were originally derived from some Wazhazhas (a band formed from Lakotas marrying Poncas) who joined the Northern Tetons at some point late in the 1700s. Then a generation or two later many Ashke families shifted back into the Brule circle - as I described above. In a later conversation (June 18, 2001) Victor stated that Iron Shell held the "primary leadership" of the Orphans and "part of the Wazhazha". The Slow Bull family history demonstrates the way family and tiyospaye identities re-emerged across the generations. There may be a little more detail to adduce, but the way I understand it now is that the paternal great-grandfather of Slow Bull (born c. 1823) was a man named Black Day Coming, born probably in the 1720s. he belonged to the Oyuhpe band of the Oglala oyate. The Oyuhpe had emerged as a distinct tiyospaye in 1710, when they divided from the Hunkpatila. Families from other tiyospaye (notably the Wablenica band of ancestral Sicangu) also went into the Oyuhpe formation.
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Post by hreinn on May 26, 2022 8:34:59 GMT -5
Is it known how many lodges Wagleza Owin consisted of ? Yes I know, it was not a fixed number through out the time.
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Post by hreinn on May 26, 2022 8:22:13 GMT -5
There are several possible threads of origin among Wagleza Owin tiyoshpaye. | Oyate | Tiyoshpaye | Wicoti | Example | A | Mnikhówozu | Wakpokiyan | Tahuka | Flying By ? | B | Mnikhówozu | Wakpokiyan | ? | | C | Mnikhówozu | ? | ? | | D | Oglala | Oyuhpe (from Hunkpatila) | ? | Slow Bull 2 (father side) | E | Oglala | Oyuhpe (from Sichangu) | ? | | F | other | ? | ? | |
It would be interesting to learn about the origin of other people among Wagleza Owin.
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Post by hreinn on May 24, 2022 18:59:50 GMT -5
Thanks Kingsley As often, things are more complicated than expected. Remarkable to see all the details regarding Slow Bull's paternal lineage and formation and structure of Wagleza Owin tiyoshpaye. OK. so Smoke mentioned in the Meany interview with Slow Bull is not the "famous" Smoke from Bad Face tiyoshpaye. I was inclined to think so, because some (not all) information in the Meany interview was same/similar to information which Wendyll Smoke gave regarding his ancestor Solomon Smoke. Information by Wendyll Smoke which fit with the Meany interview with Slow Bull (aka. Smoke): a) Solomon Smoke got his name from his father Smoke (just as the 3 generations of Slow Bull) b) Solomon Smoke's father was also known as Slow Bull (just as the 3 generations of Slow Bull) c) Solomon Smoke's mother name was Comes Out Slow Woman (vs. Comes Out in Meany interview) d) Solomon Smoke married a Mnikhówozu woman (which would have been a fit, if Slow Bull was of Bad Face origin) Information by Wendyll Smoke which DOES NOT fit with the Meany interview with Slow Bull (aka. Smoke): a) Solomon Smoke was born ca. 1835 (but not ca. 1823 as Slow Bull 2 (aka. Smoke 3) nor ca. 1844 as Slow Bull 3 (aka. Smoke 4)) b) Solomon Smoke was also known as Bad Face (but not Slow Bull) That Flying By was Wicasa Itancan among Wagleza Owin tiyoshpaye, indicates that the Wakpokiyan thread in Wagleza Owin came (partly/mainly ?) from Tahuka wicoti among Wakpokyian tiyoshpaye. Because as you informed us earlier, Lame Deer belonged to Tahuka wicoti and Lame Deer and the older Flying By and namesake of Lame Deer's son were related. It is interesting to see a glimpse of a possible relation between Lame Deer and High Backbone. Regarding the split of Oyuhpe from Hunkpatila, I wonder if that happened by splitting of one or more wicoti or if one or more wicoti went away as a whole.
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Post by hreinn on May 23, 2022 15:24:20 GMT -5
If Slow Bull was born among Bad Face (Oglala) and his wife Comes Out was born among Wagleza Owin (Mnikhówozu). It would be interesting to learn about her Wagleza Owin roots, i.e. her Wakpokiyan (Mnikhówozu) and Oyuhpe/Hunkpatila (Oglala) roots. Even to see to which wicoti among Wakpokiyan and Hunkpatila her parents/grandparents belonged to.
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