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Post by hreinn on May 14, 2022 8:43:11 GMT -5
Some clarifications based on Meany interview with Slow Bull (Slow Bull 3), which Ephriam posted above. Slow Bull 1, 2, 3 His grandfather had the name of Slow Bull, then his father an then he himself. For 3 generations, an individual had the warrior name Slow Bull and Smoke was the elder (elderly) name of the same individual. "Smoke" has remained a "second" name for the last three generations.
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Post by hreinn on May 11, 2022 18:03:52 GMT -5
Kingsley, thanks for this great news. It will be interesting to see more details.
For example, it would be interesting to learn if Slow Bull (Slow Bull 2) was born into Wagleza Owin or if he was married into Wagleza Owin.
It would also be interesting to learn if Smoke (Slow Bull 1) mentioned in Meany's interview with Slow Bull (Slow Bull 3), posted above by Ephriam, is the "famous" Smoke who belonged to various bands during his lifetime, that is Ground Squirrel Eaters, Bad Face and Loafers. With the possible result that Slow Bull 2 was a son of Smoke and therefore of Bad Face (Oglala) origin, while his wife Comes Out would have been born as Wagleza Owin (Mnikhówozu). Which would mean that Slow Bull 2 was related to Red Cloud and American Horse. Which would fit to that Slow Bull 3 considered Red Cloud as the greatest leader of Lakota and Red Cloud was the leader of the first war party which Slow Bull 3 took part in.
Bad Face/Ground Squirrel Eaters origin of Slow Bull 2 would also give insight to what Alex Charging Crow said to Collier: "After Old Red Cloud killed those men he fled. He was gone three years, staying among the minikoZu. Then he returned." So perhaps "Old Red Cloud" stayed among Wagleza Owin tiyoshpaye among Mnikhówozu.
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Post by hreinn on Mar 2, 2022 17:53:37 GMT -5
Can we discover more about this family and determine what bands or tiysopaye they were associated with KuhinyanMother of No Ears and Left Heron, Bear Woman, was of Kuhinyan origin. Old Man Afraid was also of Kuhinyan origin. So a location of No Ears among Payabya tiyoshpaye (Young Man Afraid's band), could indicate a Kuhinayn family relations between Bear Woman and Old Man Afraid. Wakpokiyan and WazhazhaFrom page 50 in Scudder Mekeel's field notes, regarding Left Heron's grandfathers: "His grandfather was a Wajaja or "Flies Along the Creek". He said his grand-father's name was Looking Elk and was a Cheyenne having three wives who were Wajaja. They were all sisters. Looking Elk was his mother's father. His father's father, was a Black-Feet Sioux, White Eagle by name." There seems to a a confusion in the quote above. Because you have 3 different descriptions of grandfathers: a) "His grandfather was a Wajaja or Flies Along the Creek." b) a Cheyenne maternal grandfather, named Looking Elk. c) a Sihasapa Lakota paternal grandfather, named White Eagle Description c) seems to be wrong or a confusion. Description a) is needed to explain why Left Heron's father Walking Eagle belonged to Wakpokiyan tiyoshpaye. If Description a) is wrong, then there is missing an explanation for why Walking Eagle belonged to Wakpokiyan. Description a) fits to Emily Levine's information according to Kingsley Bray, i.e. Red Fish was Walking Eagle's father. So Left Heron's and No Ears' paternal grandfather and Walking Eagle's father seems to have been Red Fish (Red Fish 1). The quote "His grandfather was a Wajaja or Flies Along the Creek." Indicates that one of Red Fish's parent originated among Wazhazha (Sichangu) and the other parent originated among Wakpokiyan (Mnikhówozu). That is interesting, because Elaine Quiver (modern descendant of Red Fish) said to Kingsley Bray that Red Fish and Black Bull were brothers or "brothers". Black Bull has also been asigned to both Wakpokiyan (Mnikhówozu) and Sichangu (? Wazhazha ?) With this emerges a coherent description of the origin of Red Fish and Black Bull. Sons of both Red Fish and Black Bull have all been asigned to Wakpokiyan. Red Fish's sons: Walking Eagle, Elk That Bellows Walking (aka. Whistling Elk) and Red Fish 2 (which might be another name for Walking Eagle or Elk That Bellows Walking). Black Bull's sons: One Horn and Lone Horn. It would be interesting to know to which wicoti among Wakpokiyan Walking Eagle belonged to. Kingsley Bray has given us the names of 2 wicoti among Wakpokiyan: 1. Maza Su (Iron Seed) which Roman Nose and Fast Antelope belonged to. 2. Tahuka which Lame Deer belonged to. Left Heron and No Ears had Wazhazha connection on both sides, i.e. on father and mother side. Maternal grandmother was a Wazhazha. Paternal great-grandfather or great-grandmother was a Wazhazha.
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Post by hreinn on Jun 22, 2021 11:21:42 GMT -5
Correction: In the post above, instead of Big Road 1, it should be Big Road 2. Surrounded Bear 1 (assumingly born ca. 1780) = married to Red Bird/Red Wing. Father of White Feather/White Plume. Grandfather of Big Road 1. There were at least 3 males within Oyuhpe with the name Big Road (Chanku Tanka / Čȟaŋkú Tȟáŋka). Big Road 1 (b.ca.1800-1810): Shirt Wearer 1845-?. Big Road 2 (b.1834, d.1892): Wicasa Itancan 1870s-1892. Son of White Plume/White Feather/Flying Feather/Bird's Down. Big Road 3 (aka. Chase Alone) (b.1863 or 1867, d.ca.1910-1930): Wicasa Itancan 1892-1910. Son of Big Road 2. Big Road 2 and Big Road 3 belonged to Wakan wicoti among Oyuhpe tiyoshpaye.
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Post by hreinn on Jun 18, 2021 13:19:11 GMT -5
Interesting observation that Pawnee Killer's father-in-law, Little Bald Eagle, could have been a Sichangu Lakota. That would explain in part or fully that some Sichangu lodges were sometimes mentioned as camping with Pawnee Killer. In 1896, a group of 89 Sichangu people were invited to Cincinnati, Ohio to participate in a Wild West Show. In June 1896, the Sichangu group arrived in Cincinnati by a train with their lodges and horses. The Sichangu group camped in Cincinnati for 3 months. The Sichangu group was a mixture of men, women and children, i.e. families If we allow 4-7 persons per family or lodge, it means ca. 13-22 Sichangu lodges or families camped in Cincinnati, Ohio during the summer 1896. Like often/always, you suspect that these families were related. Among these 89 Sichangu people, were at least 2 sons of Iron Shell, i.e. Young Iron Shell and Goes to War. There was also a person identified as Little Bald Eagle. I wonder if Little Bald Eagle was related to Iron Shell's family. Below are links to 2 PDF-files by Susan Labry Meyn about this 1896 visit of the Sichangu familes to Cincinnati, Ohio. 1. Susan Labry Meyn; "Mutual Infatuation: Rosebud Sioux and Cincinnatians", Queen City Heritage, Spring/Summer 1994. library.cincymuseum.org/topics/c/files/cintizoo/qch-v52-n1-2-mut-030.pdf2. Susan Labry Meyn; "CINCINNATIANS AND AMERICAN INDIANS TO 1900", Enduring Encounters www.ohioswallow.com/extras/9780821417393_intro.pdfIn both of these PDF-files by Meyn, are photos of a person identified as Little Bald Eagle. In [1] on page 37. In [2] Figure 9 on page 35, Little Bald Eagle in these 2 PDF-files by Meyn is obviously the same person. But Little Bald Eagle in these PDF-files by Meyn, does not look alike Little Bald Eagle who is supposedly on the photo above in the first post of this thread. It might be because of a different age of the same person or the Meyn's Little Bald Eagle is a son of older Little Bald Eagle. I am not sure when the above group photo in the first post in this thread was taken. But the photos in the 2 PDF-files by Meyn were taken in 1896.
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Post by hreinn on Jun 15, 2021 19:46:13 GMT -5
Just rechecking - could the name "Surrendered in Water" actually be Surrounded in Water? The Lakota name is Mni-o-na-jin-yanpi. That sounds like it means standing in water, brought to a stand - surrounded? And is this then the name Surrounded Bear? The full original name meaning something like (Bear) Brought to a Stand in Water. Yes, the correct translation of the name Mni-o-na-jin-yanpi seems to be "Surrounded in Water" According to Ullrich's New Lakota Dictionary: Mni means water. onážiŋyAŋ (as a variant of nážiŋyAŋ) means to surround sb, to corner sb, outflank, hold at bay. Ullrich's Dictionary does not give a translation for the word surrender. Comparison of the 2 versions, Kingsley / Ullrich, part by part: o-na-jin-yanpi / onážiŋyAŋ part 1: o / o part 2: na / ná part 3: jin / žiŋ part 4: yan / yAŋ part 5: pi / - This -pi ending is probably some grammar thing. According to Ullrich's New Lakota Dictionary, the ending -pi can have several different meanings: 1 plural indicator 2 passive voice indicator 3 nominalizer (makes nouns of some verbs) So yes, there is a logic in the spectrum Surrendered in Water - Surrounded in Water - Surrounded Bear. As I understand the writings of Kingsley Bray and Ephriam Dickson in this thread and in the threads Oyuhpe and Red War Bonnet. There were 2 males with the name Surrounded Bear and 1 male with the name Surrendered in Water (= Surrounded Bear ?). Surrounded Bear 1 (assumingly born ca. 1780) = married to Red Bird/Red Wing. Father of White Feather/White Plume. Grandfather of Big Road 1. Surrounded Bear 2 (assumingly born ca. 1810) = married to Good Woman (daughter of Shoulder). Brother-in-law to Whirlwind Chaser/Whirlwind Track, Standing Bear and Red Warbonnet. Together Surrounded Bear 2 and Good Woman had Stephen Standing Bear (getting his name from his mother's brother Standing Bear). Surrendered in Water (born ca. 1830) = married to Fisher Woman. Father of White Face. Is it now know if and how these men were related ? i.e. Surrounded Bear 1, Surrounded Bear 2, Surrendered in Water. If so, is it possible to reveal that here ?
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Post by hreinn on Apr 17, 2021 8:45:34 GMT -5
This is a sad news. It must be difficult for her people. This is too early.
LaDonna was always very helpful and informative. LaDonna will be missed here and she will be remembered.
With good thoughts and feelings to her family and to her in the spirit world.
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Apr 17, 2021 8:03:00 GMT -5
OK. I see. Thanks for this clarification. I looked into my "bible", i.e. New Lakota Dictionary edited by Ullrich and find: sáŋ = to be dull white, off-white, whitish or grayish white. iúŋ = to apply smth on smth (as ointment, salve, paint), rub on, anoint, paint (when indicating color) So what you write as Saniun, Ullrich would write as Sáŋiúŋ. Compared to the words Saoni/Saone, I find the latter part not convincingly comparable ! So I am still open to a Cheyenne language influence ! For a better comparison: Saniun Sáŋiúŋ Saoni Saone
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Post by hreinn on Apr 15, 2021 12:54:04 GMT -5
Thanks for replying.
OK. so the term Saone has the same multiple/complex nature as the term Shiyo. That is, the same term can be referring to a group of people on different levels in the Lakota society. Saone ; wicoti level, oshpaye level, oyate level. Shiyo; wicoti level, tiyoshpaye level, oshpaye level.
Is Saone a Lakota word ? or a Cheyenne word ? Were Saone originally (or later) partly made up of a group of Cheyenne people ?
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Post by hreinn on Mar 14, 2021 8:47:21 GMT -5
Below are photos of Red Bear from 1868 at Fort Laramie. Photo 1: Red Bear is second from right, shaking hands with James Bordeaux trader. Other Lakotas on the photos are Man Afraid (center) and Packs the Drum (left) Photo 2: Red Bear is on the far left. Packs the Drum (center) and Man Afraid (right). Perhaps our photo wizards, Grahame, Gregor and Dietmar, can post additional photos of Red Bear. I wonder to what oyate and tiyoshpaye this Red Bear belonged to ? OyateI assume this Red Bear was an Oglala, just as the other 2 Lakotas on the above photos. I assume this is not the Itazipco Red Bear who was a wakichunza (wakíčhuŋzA, decider) among Itazipco in 1876. TiyoshpayeThe most likely tiyoshpaye are Payabya, Kuhinyan, Hunkpatila (which Man Afraid was associated with) and Kiyuksa (which Packs the Drum was perhaps associated with). Of these Payabya and Kuhinyan are most likely. I wonder if this Red Bear (Red Bear 2) was a son of Red Bear (Red Bear 1) who was a son of Sitting Bear 1 and grandson of Split Rock. According to Kingsley Bray and his Oglala informants, it was Split Rock who threw a dust into the face of his brother, leading to the splitting/dissolving of Izuza tiyospaye or wicoti. With the result of the coining of the name Oglala or True Oglala to Split Rock's group and the Bear People which he allied with. Kingsley Bray said that Red Bear 1 moved to Kuhinyan tiyoshpaye. According to Kingsley Bray, Man Afraid's parents also belonged to Kuhinyan tiyoshpaye. Where grandfather of Man Afraid married to a sister of Crouches Running, the chief of Kuhinyan tiyoshpaye. So Red Bear and Man Afraid on the above photos were perhaps relatives. Through a) Red Bear 1 or his wife and b) either parent of Man Afraid.
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Post by hreinn on Mar 5, 2021 18:36:17 GMT -5
There is a mention of a wakíčhuŋzA (decider) named Iya in Donald Collier's field notes, based on an interview with Alex Charging Crow: "When Red Cloud became chief the following were wakitcunZa: Red Cloud, Iron Hawk, í*ya White Hawk, Shot in the Face, High White Man (Bad Horse)."
Earlier in Collier's field notes, there was a reference to 6 deciders in Bad Face band, therefore í*ya is not an additional name, nickname, Lakota version or description of White Hawk: "We used to have 6 wakitcunZa. They went afoot in the lead when we moved camp. And there were four head akicita."
This Iya could be He Dog's older brother or the namesake of He Dog's older brother. This person was a decider in Bad Face band. But not in Soreback band (He Dog's band). That can be explained by that He Dog's mother Blue Day Woman was a daughter of a Bad Face woman (Walks As She Thinks) and a Kuhinyan man (Lone Man). Taken for granted that Blue Day Woman's parents were the same as parents of Red Cloud and that Blue Day Woman was a sister of Red Cloud (but not "sister").
According to Ullrich´s NEW LAKOTA dictionary, the translation of Iya is not exactly monster, but rather a mythical giant eater:
Íya = 1 the giant eater (a character from Lakota myths who ate people) 2 a glutton, a voracious person
iyÁ 1 to speak 2 to speak a language, be a speaker of a language
monster 1 mniwátu (a water monster; a whale) 2 uηkčéğila (a large mythical monster, water monster, large prehistorical animal (their fossilzed remains are found in the Badlands and elsewhere on Lakota territory)
monstrosity wówaηke (a monstrosity (as an animal or child born deformed), smth curious or weird that attracts attention.))
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Post by hreinn on Dec 22, 2020 6:29:08 GMT -5
OK.
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Post by hreinn on Dec 21, 2020 14:05:33 GMT -5
Not 100% sure, but I would guess that the second man from the left, sitting, is Hollow Horn Bear.
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Post by hreinn on Jul 29, 2020 5:07:11 GMT -5
Yes, I agree that the "club man" is Picket Pin.
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Post by hreinn on Jul 27, 2020 11:29:10 GMT -5
EDIT on May 14, 2022: Slow Bull 1 in this post, is actually Slow Bull 2. See post below from May 14, 2022 by Hreinn. As discussed above, Slow Bull 1 was variously associated with Mnikhówozu or Oglala. Just as Wagleza Owin was variously associated with Mnikhówozu or Oglala. So I wonder if Slow Bull 1 belonged to the Wagleza Owin tiyoshpaye among Mnikhówozu. Where Wagleza Owin tiyoshpaye was a mixture of people from Wakpokiyan and Oyuhpe. When Slow Bull 1 was born in ca. 1823. Oyuhpe were still living among Mnikhówozu. So Slow Bull 1 was definately born in a Mnikhówozu camp. Oyuhpe relocated to Oglala changleska in 1835. So after 1835, Slow Bull 1 could have been asigned to either Oglala or Mnikhówozu. Slow Bull 1 was one of Mnikhówozu signatories of the 1868 Fort Laramie Treaty. If Slow Bull 1 belonged to Wagleza Owin, then we can view Gardner's 1868 photo at Fort Laramie in a new light (see photo below). On that photo we have 4 Mnikhówozu signatories to the Fort Laramie Treaty 1868. 3 signatories from Wakpokiyan tiyoshpaye (Roman Nose, Lone Horn and Whistling Elk). 1 signatory from an offshot from Wakpokiyan tiyoshpaye and closely related Wagleza Owin tiyoshpaye (Slow Bull, far right on the photo).
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