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Post by hreinn on Nov 26, 2009 15:31:49 GMT -5
The family insists that they never became husband and wife or sexual lovers. If Crazy Horse was only protecting Black Buffalo Woman against her husband. If Crazy Horse was only giving Black Buffalo Woman a moral comfort. If Crazy Horse and Black Buffalo Woman were only on a short travel together and had no plans for the future. If Crazy Horse and Black Buffalo Woman were neither husband and wife of any sort nor sexual lovers. Then it was a huge overreaction of the contemporary Oglala society to the travel of Crazy Horse and Black Buffalo Woman together. The reactions which followed were: 1. No Water along with some supporters hunted down Crazy Horse and Black Buffalo Woman 2. No Water shot Crazy Horse 3. Horn Chips (Crazy Horse's hunka) was casted out from No Water's band 4. Crazy Horse lost his status as a Shirt Wearer (for what ? for letting another person shoot him ? for not revenging himself ?)
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Post by hreinn on Nov 25, 2009 22:45:13 GMT -5
Brock: Thanks for a detailed reply. Great to see a picture of No Water. It is obvious from what you say, that the intermingle of Crazy Horse, Black Buffalo Woman and No Water had a long history. I look forward to read the book by the Clown's family (not because of the intermingle of Crazy Horse, Black Buffalo Woman and No Water). As expected, the DVDs from the Clown family has been very interesting and hopefully they add even more information in the book. I agree that Black Shawl deserves a respect. Black Shawl had a very positive income in Crazy Horse's life and brought a happiness into Crazy Horse's life. Interesting the chasing of No Water by Touch the Cloud and others. Also interesting was No Water riding his horse until the death of the horse, after shooting of Crazy Horse. This is exactly the same as No Water did when he was chasing Crazy Horse + Black Shawl + Shell Boy + Kicking Bear 7 years later in the year 1877. [K.M. Bray; Crazy Horse - A Lakota Life, pages 364 - 365] [R.G. Hardorff; The Death of Crazy Horse, page 43 and 187] This is in a striking contrast to what Crazy Horse did when his horse played out under a life threatening circumstance when many Shoshones were chasing Crazy Horse and other Oglalas. Crazy Horse was in the rearguard of the flight of the Oglala's, when Crazy Horse noticed that his horse was almost exhausted. So Crazy Horse turned the exhausted horse loose (I assume the horse was alive), even though that meant a fight for his life with Shoshones. [K.M. Bray; Crazy Horse - A Lakota Life, page 130] But No Water did not do that. He used the horses he rode, until they were fatally exhausted. This underlines the difference in character of Crazy Horse vs. No Water. Crazy Horse being more considered and not as selfish.
With full respect on my behalf, I want to make comments on 2 points on what Brock says above that the Clown family tells him, that is: 1. "The family tells me that Crazy Horse was on his way to Slim Buttes for their normal fall buffalo hunt when he was approached by Black Buffalo Woman." 2. "The family insists that they never became husband and wife or sexual lovers." My comments are based on a contemporary source regarding this matter.
First, the time of the year of the Crazy Horse and Black Buffalo Woman incident. If it is correctly understood that Brock is talking about when Crazy Horse and Black Buffalo Woman went together and Crazy Horse got nearly killed by No Water. Then a contemporary source says this happened in late spring or early summer, but not during fall (autumn).
He Dog said that Crazy Horse was healing from the wound which No Water made, when Little Hawk (Crazy Horse's brother) was killed. [Hinman Interview with He Dog, Oglala, S.D. July 13, 1930] "When Red Cloud went to Washington, Crazy Horse went south and found his brother's body and buried it." [Hinman Interview with He Dog, Oglala, S.D. July 13, 1930] Red Cloud was on his way to Washington at Fort Fetterman on May 16th 1870. Red Cloud returned to Fort Laramie on June 26th 1870. [R.W. Larson; Red Cloud - Warrior-Statesman of the Lakota Sioux, pages 129-139] So the No Water's shooting of Crazy Horse happened before the return of Red Cloud and therefore before July 1870. So according to this, the trouble regarding Crazy Horse + Black Buffalo Woman happened in the time frame May to June 1870, but not during fall 1870. Second, the wife vs. not wife and sexual lovers vs. not sexual lovers. I think it is more to it than a romantic idea that Crazy Horse and Black Buffalo Woman had some intimate relationship (although not lasting long). That is based on what a contemporary of Crazy Horse said, that is He Dog. He Dog said: "Crazy Horse was married three times. The first time was to No Water's wife, but she only stayed with him a few days." [Hinman Interview with He Dog, Oglala, S.D. July 7, 1930] He Dog should know what he was talking about, because: 1. He Dog was a contemporary to Crazy Horse 2. He Dog was a friend of Crazy Horse, both as a boy and an adult. 3. He Dog was a blood brother of Little Shield 4. Little Shield was one of the few who were with Crazy Horse and Black Buffalo Woman during their few days together. So it seems to be obvious that they were a couple for a short period of time. No one really knows whether they were sexual lovers or not. But based on the circumstances and the understanding of their contemporaries that they were a couple, it is just natural to assume that they were sexual lovers. It is more likely than not, that they were sexual lovers. Based on the reaction of No Water, he obviously did not consider Crazy Horse and Black Buffalo Woman to be just friends. In general in every field, a contemporary source usually has more weight than a later source. Although contemporary sources are not above critical judgment. But to overrule a contemporary source, the later source or someone else has to be able to explain reasonable why/how the contemporary source is wrong and explain why the difference arises between the contemporary source and the later source. Otherwise people prefer to take notice of the contemporary source instead of the later source.
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Post by hreinn on Nov 25, 2009 16:20:09 GMT -5
According to the New Lakota Dictionary by Ullrich (2008), the Lakhota word for a dinosaur is uŋkčéğila tĥaŋka.
Which I think can also be written in an easier version as unkcegila thanka.
The explanations for each word given by the New Lakota Dictionary are: tĥaŋka = to be large, big, great in any way, significant. uŋkčéğila = large mythical monster, water monster, large prehistoric animal (their fossilized remains are found in the Badlands and elsewhere on Lakota territory).
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Post by hreinn on Nov 25, 2009 16:04:05 GMT -5
Kingsley: Thanks for a detailed reply as always. I agree that it is likely that this 90 years old woman in the year 1887 (born 1796-1797) was the wife of Makes the Songs and therefore Crazy Horse's Oglala grandmother. Crazy Horse's Oglala grandmother almost "has to be" related to the Smoke family ! And more specifically to one of Smoke's wife. When you consider together the formation of thiyóšpaye (thiyosphaye) in the Lakhota society and family trees information, there is no other choice. You can rule out all other possibilities. As can be seen by the following references in the literature, the people in each thiyóšpaye were related: 1. "The tiyospaye, or lodge group, was the basic building block of society. A cluster of families, related by blood and marriage, the tiyospaye was typically fifty or a hundred people strong." [K.M. Bray; Crazy Horse - A Lakota Life, page 7] 2. "Sioux society had its foundation in small, close-knit family hunting groups." "This group, the core of the Sioux society, was known as the "tiyospe"." [R.B. Hassrick; The Sioux, page 2] 3. "According to DeMallie (1976:81), a single Tiyospaye was composed of 5 to 20 related families." [G. Gibbon; The Sioux - The Dakota and Lakota Nations, page 247] 4. "Each band, or tiyospaye, was ordinarily comprised of ten or more bilaterally extended families" [R.W. Larson; Red Cloud - The Warrior Statesman of the Lakota Sioux, page 35] But according to the known combined information about Crazy Horse's and Smoke's family trees, see the following: 1. K.M. Bray; Crazy Horse - A Lakota Life2. R.G. Hardorff; The Death of Crazy Horse3. Information on DVDs from the Clown family; The Authorized Biography of Crazy Horse and His Family from Reel Contact 4. Information from Wendyll Smoke in the thread amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=oglala1&action=display&thread=239&page=2There is no known link between Crazy Horse's and Smoke's families. But it is a fact that they lived together and formed the Hunkpatila thiyóšpaye. Not only did these families form the Hunkpatila thiyóšpaye for many years, but some of these years were heavily strained between war vs. peace attitude regarding the white people and finaly led to a split of the thiyóšpaye. That these families stayed together for such a long time during difficult times, suggest a close family ties. So Crazy Horse's Oglala grandmother almost "has to be" related to one of Smoke's wife. There is no one else in the Crazy Horse's family who could be related to the Smoke family. Therefore it seems to be almost a question of a confirmation and a bringing up the name of these 2 women. That is Crazy Horse's Oglala grandmother and a woman in the Smoke family (most likely Smoke's Oglala wife). To complicate matter even more. I was thinking about how the Yellow Eagle family and Standing Bull family in the Hunkpatila thiyóšpaye were related to Crazy Horse. Whether it could be through the Oglala grandmother of Crazy Horse ? Perhaps to the wife of Yellow Eagle and/or wife of Standing Bull ? Is it known how Crazy Horse is related to Yellow Eagle and Standing Bull ? Kingsley: I think it is very likely to be correct what you have been thinking about regarding the connection between Parts of Body (father of Old Smoke) and the daughter of Standing Bull I.
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Post by hreinn on Nov 18, 2009 0:16:09 GMT -5
The Oglala wife of Makes the Song and mother to Worm and grandmother to Crazy Horse, was she a blood sister to Smoke's Oglala wife ? Was that relationship between these women the "glue" in the Hunkpatila band ? That is, was that the reason why Crazy Horse/Worm/Makes the Song and Young Man Afraid of His Horse/Old Man Afraid of His Horse/Smoke were part of the Hunkpatila band ? What was her name ?
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Post by hreinn on Sept 16, 2009 4:47:57 GMT -5
Just a small thought: Miyelo wrote in the reply number 20 in the thread Crazy Horse.... Miniconju...?: "Here is a cool fact she told me: there are old stories of how Iron Shell and Spotted Tail would take the young boys (Crazy Horse was one of them) to hunt and several times came across DINOSAURS. B says it must be true as there was a Lakota word for these creatures that has been handed down since the time they saw them out hunting." amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=teton&action=display&thread=321&page=2This experience and knowledge from the youth visit of Crazy Horse to Sicangu is probably the reason for what was later repeated after Crazy Horse by Alfred Ribman that "at his death his bones would turn to rock and his joints to flint" [see the Ribman quote on page 49 in To Kill An Eagle by Edward Kadlecek & Mabell Kadlecek]. But obviously Crazy Horse did not want his bones been turned into rock. Because Crazy Horse asked that "if anything happened to him and he died, his body should be painted with red war paint and then plunged into fresh water, anywhere, and his life would be restored". If not, "his spirit would still rise". [see page 49 in To Kill An Eagle by Edward Kadlecek & Mabell Kadlecek]. It would be interesting to know the Lakota word for dinosaurs and the meaning/thinking of the word.
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Post by hreinn on Aug 25, 2009 16:20:34 GMT -5
Thanks Dietmar !
Yes it could be right that I am the first member from Iceland.
I hope for as many answers as possible about Black Buffalo Woman.
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Aug 25, 2009 16:06:18 GMT -5
Okay. I was aware of the age of Iron Shell and therefore the age difference between Iron Shell and Crazy Horse. But I didn't know there were 2 different terms, that is hunkabrother versus hunkason. I thought hunkabrother would cover this type of relationship between males, independent of an age difference (similar to fosterbrothers in the viking culture).
Is a hunkason a different relationship than a hunkabrother ?
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Aug 25, 2009 15:22:48 GMT -5
Kingsley: I hope you will get an opportunity to publish a second edition of your Crazy Horse book. I would definitely also buy a second edition of your masterpiece. It is amazing and enjoyable how your Crazy Horse book is loaded with information in a well written manner. Some would perhaps think it is easy to do so, but in the reality there are few (in every field) who are able to do so. It would be interesting to see what you would come up with regarding Crazy Horse and Iron Shell and the visit to Sicangu's. You have shown by examples that you are able to come up with interesting, thoughtful and reasonable explanations (for example your comments on Mari Sandoz assumptions).
The long visit of teenage Crazy Horse to Sicangu probably explains many of the Sicangu lodges at LBH camp in the summer 1876. It is known that some of Iron Shell's Sicangu's relatives were in the LBH camp, while the majority of the Sicangu's were not at LBH. This is because in the long visit of Crazy Horse to the Sicangu he probably established a long lasting personal connection with Iron Shell family and relatives.
There is one thing I didn't mention directly in the first post, but only weakly implied. The first guess for the reason of a hunka relationship between Crazy Horse and Iron Shell, could be as a some kind of gratitude on the behalf of Iron Shell. The reason could be as a gratitude towards Worm or his relatives in hosting Iron Shell's wife and children. And/or as a gratitude for Worm acting as a Wicasa Wacan (holy man) in comforting and strengthening Iron Shell's wife and children after the horrible event at Blue Water. And/or as a gratitude for the tenderness of the teenage Crazy Horse towards Iron Shell's children in the Oglala camp. Which is not out of the blue, since young Crazy Horse was known to be very nice to his younger brother and Black Elk said that Crazy Horse as an adult was nice to children.
It would be interresting to hear more about the relationship between Crazy Horse and Iron Shell from Iron Shell's relatives.
Miyelo: What excactly does "HUNKA'D" mean in the the context "Iron Shell hunka'd Crazy Horse as his son and CH called Iron Shell "father". More specifically what does the 'D means ? I guess it doesn't stand for "had", meaning ... hunka had.. . Trying to excuse myself: my first language is neither English nor Lakota. Is it correctly understood that Crazy Horse and Iron Shell were hunkabrothers ?
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Aug 23, 2009 10:01:23 GMT -5
Miyelo wrote in the reply number 20 in the thread "Crazy Horse.... Miniconju...?"; "Iron Shell hunka´d Crazy Horse as his son and CH called Iron Shell "father"". (http://amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=teton&action=display&thread=321&page=2)
As I understand this writing of Miyelo, Crazy Horse and Iron Shell were hunkabrothers. At least they had some close personal connections. As can be seen by what Miyelo wrote in the reply number 20 in the above mentioned thread; "Iron Shell had 29 sons, whom he called his "army" and from here Hollow Horn Bear, Crow Dog, Brave Bird etc came. Crazy Horse lived with these brothers for long time". As can also be seen by what Kingsley Bray wrote in the reply number 10 in the same above mentioned thread; that Iron Shell and mother of Crazy Horse = Rattle Blanket Woman both came from the Miniconju Ashke band.
He Dog said that Crazy Horse lived with the Sicangu for about 1 year. But He Dog did not give any reason for this long visit and did not mention with whom Crazy Horse lived with, that is in what tent and who fed him for this long period of time. Therefore it seems a little bit mysterious why Crazy Horse at the age of 15 moved away from the Oglala camp and lived with the Sicangu´s for about 1 year.
But a close personal connection between Iron Shell (a Sicangu) and young Crazy Horse, could explain the reason why the young (15 years old) Crazy Horse left the Oglala camp and lived with the Sicangu for about 1 year. This also explains with whom Crazy Horse stayed with and who fed him during this long visit. That is to say, Crazy Horse went with his hunkabrother Iron Shell who hosted young Crazy Horse for about 1 year. This seems to be a more reasonable explanation than Crazy Horse going with and living with Spotted Tail. Do you agree Kingsley Bray ?
If Iron Shell and Crazy Horse were hunkabrothers, I suggest the hunka ceremony occured following the Blue Water Massacre, that is in the timeframe autumn 1855 to summer 1856. There are 2 possible circumstances for the coming together of Iron Shell and Crazy Horse during the above mentioned timeframe. First, in the spring/summer 1856 when the Oglala and the Sicangu camps come together for a summer camp. Second, Iron Shell could have arrived in the Oglala camp after the Blue Water Massacre (soon after or later). Because as Miyelo said in the reply number 20 in the above mentioned thread, that among the survivors of the Blue Water Massacre on the 3rd of September 1855 were one of Iron Shell wife with some children. She managed to escape and was harbored by some Oglala´s (who ? Worm = father of Curly Hair ?). If Iron Shell came to the Oglala camp to see his wife, he could have stayed there for several days or several weeks. Iron Shell would have met Worm = Waglula = father of Curly Hair and later on Iron Shell and Worm could have agreed upon that Iron Shell and young Crazy Horse would be hunkabrothers. When Iron Shell leaves the Oglala camp, the young Crazy Horse follows Iron Shell and stays with him and his familly for about 1 year.
Since Crazy Horse was a hunkabrother to Chip and then also a hunkabrother to Iron Shell, then it must have been okay for a person to have more than 1 hunkabrother at each given time. Is that correct ?
Gudmundur Hreinn Sveinsson
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Post by hreinn on Aug 22, 2009 5:42:32 GMT -5
The little I know about Black Buffalo Woman is mainly from what I have read in Kingsley Bray masterpiece: "Crazy Horse - A Lakota Life".
What I can gather is that Black Buffalo Woman was born in the year 1846 as an Oglala Lakota. Her father was a "brother" to Red Cloud. In the year 1862 Black Buffalo Woman married No Water. In the year 1870 she eloped with Crazy Horse and they traveled together for only 2 days before No Water ended the trip by shooting Crazy Horse in the face. Black Buffalo Woman had 3 or 4 children. The father to her last born child (a girl born in 1871) was perhaps Crazy Horse. Her oldest child was a boy born in 1863 which later on received his father name No Water. Black Buffalo Woman was said to be attractive and beautiful.
Since Black Buffalo Woman had such an influence on Crazy Horse life, I would like to know more about her, if possible. Therefore I would like to ask the following questions:
1. What was the name of Black Buffalo Woman parents ? 2. How was the father of Black Buffalo Woman related to Chief Smoke and Red Cloud ? (see the thread "Chief Smoke and his family" and the information from Wendyll Smoke (http://amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=oglala1&action=display&thread=239)) 3. Into which band/tiyoshpaye was Black Buffalo Woman born and raised in ?
4. Does there exists a description of Black Buffalo Woman looking or personality ? 5. Does there exists pictures of Black Buffalo Woman, No Water or their children ?
6. How many children did Black Buffalo Woman have (3 or 4) ? 7. What were the names of the children of Black Buffalo Woman ? 8. When were the children of Black Buffalo Woman born ? I am specially interrested to know in what month of the year her last child was born (the girl she perhaps owned with CH).
9. In what band/tiyoshpaye did the couple Black Buffalo Woman and No Water belong to most of the time ? 10. Why did Black Buffalo Woman and No Water not get along ? 11. After how many days after No Water shooting of Crazy Horse did Black Buffalo Woman go back to No Water ? 12. Did Black Buffalo Woman have any relationship or affair with other men than No Water and Crazy Horse ? 13. Did No Water start to drink an alcohol after settlement on reservation or perhaps before the elopement of Black Buffalo Woman and Crazy Horse ? 14. Did Black Buffalo Woman and No Water divorce later on ? 15. Did Black Buffalo Woman divorce No Water in a proper way according to the Lakota ways, before the elopement with Crazy Horse ?
I wonder why Black Buffalo Woman went back to No Water if she wanted to divorce. Okay, No Water could not tolerate that Black Buffalo Woman was with Crazy Horse, but he could not have anything to say about her living alone. If everything was in an order for her to divorce her husband and that having been done in a proper way and she wanted not to live with No Water, then she should have been able to live by her own and not having to return to No Water.
Miyelo: Does Broken Leg have anything about Black Buffalo Woman ?
With best wishes, Gudmundur Hreinn Sveinsson
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