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Post by dT on Feb 27, 2012 19:07:07 GMT -5
OK - absolutely no problem. No offense intended. I will talk to local artists and try to get some more info for you. Will post it here.
best wishes, dT
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Post by dT on Feb 27, 2012 15:41:35 GMT -5
I think, though, that if you reproduce your own beadwork based on Apache artists - then you should be careful to say who did the work. There is no real issue if you are just making a few items your own personal use. But if you are selling for a profit, you should be careful to state whether Apache artists did the work, or you have reproductions. You can still have fine-quality items, but it's a matter of being authentic.
That is why I am buying in Arizona ... I want to support actual N'de artists who are perfecting their own skills and carrying on their traditions.
dT
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Post by dT on Feb 27, 2012 13:44:45 GMT -5
From the above account ...
"In the Medicine Arrow Lodge surrounded by then the 6 Cheyenne Nation Warrior Societies.Stone Forehead poured the tobacco ashes on Custer's boot.
He spoke to Custer "If you ever lie to the Cheyenne or go against us,you will become those ashes."
Custer soon fired upon the village of Washita killing children,woman and old ones. Going against his word and with broken treaties.In the end found himself staring down the plains over 1500 warriors,perished at the Battle of Little Big Horn."
Very interesting words. I have never seen that before.
dT
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Post by dT on Feb 27, 2012 13:34:19 GMT -5
Bead work ... I may be able to help a little. I will be out in AZ next month (March) and I will be buying crafts from traditonal N'de artists. So if they give permission ... I may be able to photograph some beadwork.
I don't think there is a difficult problem with making moccasins, or knee-length boots. What you really need are the patterns for cutting the leather. After that, you can stitch or sew the pieces as you like. There are some places on the Internet that sell pattern designs for traditional soft leather Indian shoes. I have seen them. If I have time and I find a location, I will post it.
The question in my mind ... is how were the soles of these boots done? Chances are that soft leather is not very durable if you want to wear it outside. You can go to the Internet and buy "genuine Indian moccasins". But what these craftsmen are actually selling is a soft leather boot, with a hard sole (probably vinyl or synthetic). That's a practical approach, and you could also sew a hard leather sole onto the bottom of the boots. But it would be really interesting to know how the N'de people treated the soles of their boots to make them more durable ... the actual practice of hardening the leather.
dT
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Post by dT on Feb 27, 2012 13:26:17 GMT -5
I was just looking through this discussion about Rain-in-the-Face. A long time ago I had read an account that Rain in the Face was actually the person who killed George Armstrong Custer. However, he denied doing this towards the end of his life. He was a very brave fighter - he just didn't kill Custer. Looking around the internet, there is now a site that gives extensive research to all the accounts of the LBH battle. And it appears that the person who really did kill Custer was White Cow Bull.
On a separate note ... I came across a quote from Reno who fought with Custer. Reno is supposed to have said that the Sioux and Cheyenne horsemen were the "best light cavalry in the world". That is high praise for those warriors - since it came from their enemy at the time. Reno had studied cavalry tactics extensively, and was in a good position to make a judgment. It is fair to say, though, that many of Custer's men also fought hard to their deaths. Testimonies by Lakota who fought in LBH state that a lot of those men fought bravely to the end.
dT
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Post by dT on Feb 23, 2012 19:02:08 GMT -5
What a great story! Thanks for sharing that one. There really should be a place somewhere on this Internet site where all those stories from the elders and grandparents can be recorded. It would be such a shame - if they were lost.
thanks Montolzh !! dT
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Post by dT on Feb 22, 2012 13:00:58 GMT -5
Couerrouge ... very interesting comments. It would certainly seem to make sense and be consistent with the world view of the Chiricahua. I will post if I learn more, and perhaps others will also share their thoughts.
dT
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Post by dT on Feb 20, 2012 16:08:45 GMT -5
Greetings ... I am new here.
It would be helpful if this Web site had one area for General Topics. The question I am asking here applies to many native american peoples, although individual customs may be different.
Can someone tell me how warriors chose the words for their death song, which was sung shortly before they died? Were these words chosen on a personal basis, or were they partly influenced by tribal beliefs? I am just wondering if there is a structure for how a death song is put together, and whether it ties to a warrior's vision for his life?
thanks, dT
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Post by dT on Feb 20, 2012 12:43:12 GMT -5
First, I want to thank the people who posted the link to the video. I appreciate very much your detailed memory of these things.
Next ... I want to thank Montolzh. Because there is the wisdom of a people buried in these actions - which look simple. Things which seem simple - are not so simple.
So I wondered to myself - why should the line be painted from left to right? Yes, it is related to the turning of the Earth. And how do the Apache relate to this turning ... certainly I would guess it is through their own knowledge of the motion of the stars and the sun. So let's consider this.
If I face to the NORTH, the sun will rise in the east and go to the west. From my point of view it will rise on my right hand, and set on my left hand.
But if I face to the SOUTH, the sun will rise on my left hand and set on my right hand.
So perhaps the direction of SOUTH plays an important part in the Apache world view. Or I could have things quite wrong.
Maybe if Montolzh is kind enough ... he might explain further.
dT
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Post by dT on Feb 20, 2012 12:35:49 GMT -5
"If he lived today; I would stand beside him. Once, I moved like the wind'
I cannot blame you. Geronimo had great insight.
It was a tragedy that things worked out as they did. But the change that swept across the native american lands was so enormous - that how could anyone have expected it.
I will offer this thought to you. The Wheel of Life has not stopped turning yet. If you look at what has happened in the last 150 years - it is difficult to comprehend. But when events are half-finished ... they seem that way. There is more to come, and the path leads forwards. Eventually I believe it will all make sense.
dT
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Post by dT on Feb 17, 2012 12:29:50 GMT -5
I was thinking more about this subject ... and it occurred to me that the behavior of the Apaches is not so hard to understand.
Look at it this way. When did an Apache man leave home?? ... well sometimes to trade. But especially when he went on raids. And these raids could take anywhere from a few days to a few weeks. During that time his wife and children were at home - and if the wife would be unfaithful then probably that is when a lot of issues would develop. So that unfaithfulness would cause anger in a warrior ... because he is away from camp fighting. Yet his wife sleeps with another man. And in addition, who is this other man? He is another Apache who did NOT go on the raid. So this man may be seen as less brave - yet he is sleeping with another's wife. Those are good grounds for a major fight, and probably for wife beating as well. So I am not defending the practice, but it can be understood in the proper context.
You can see exactly the same thing happen with US Army troops today. There have been several incidents of murders of unfaithful wives at Fort Bragg in North Carolina in the last few years - because fighting men came home and found that their wife had slept with another man. So it's a human thing.
There is one Apache custom that probably contributed to the perception of "wife abuse". That was the old custom that the husband of an unfaithful wife would cut off the end of her nose. I don't know the origin of that custom - but possibly this practice is what caused white men (especially Army men on the reservation) to think that the Indians were treating their wives in a terrible way. Once again, we could have more understanding if we knew the origin of the Apache custom.
dT
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Post by dT on Feb 17, 2012 12:21:29 GMT -5
Thanks - I will be out in Arizona next month. I will ask people there if they know about this system of facepaint, and whether there was a reason for it. If I find out anything, I will let you know.
dT
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Post by dT on Feb 16, 2012 21:03:16 GMT -5
Very interesting comments about the development of the muskets. I cannot tell you about historical accurcacy - but your argument seems plausible.
I am familiar with knives and tomahawks ... I practice with these weapons. You are right that the thrown tomahawk is a highly effective weapon. Since the head is heavy, it really doesn't matter in a battle if if sticks in the target or not. As long as the throw is accurate against another warrior - it is effective (either from the cut or as a blow from the blunt side which acts as a club). For close-range fighting, the tomahawk is without equal and generally better than a pistol or a rifle. An agile warrior armed with a tomahawk has a very good chance of winning at close quarters - unless his opponent has already aimed his gun and has VERY cool nerves.
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Post by dT on Feb 16, 2012 20:55:41 GMT -5
Greetings ... I am new here. I am impressed by some of the detailed knowledge that permanent members have on this forum - especially by your ability to identify people and tribes from old photos.
I have noticed that in many photos of Chiricahua during the days of raiding with Geronimo - that the warriors often wore one painted white line across their face. The line runs horizontally underneath the eyes. Can anyone tell me why the warriors used facepaint in that way? Was it a mark for a certain sub-tribe or raiding party?
Since the line passes under the eyes, I wondered if it had a practical significance. Perhaps it was to reduce the glare of the sun into the eyes. But in that case I would think that you would need dark paint ... and not white paint. So I am guessing that this was a specific identification for some reason.
thanks, dT
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Post by dT on Feb 16, 2012 20:27:03 GMT -5
Hallo folks. I will actually be visiting these areas in southern AZ in March of 2012. Can anyone explain which places are the most interesting and the most scenic? I would hate to miss something ... I can only spend a couple of days down near the Dragoon Mountains.
dT
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