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Post by dT on Feb 16, 2012 20:55:41 GMT -5
Greetings ... I am new here. I am impressed by some of the detailed knowledge that permanent members have on this forum - especially by your ability to identify people and tribes from old photos.
I have noticed that in many photos of Chiricahua during the days of raiding with Geronimo - that the warriors often wore one painted white line across their face. The line runs horizontally underneath the eyes. Can anyone tell me why the warriors used facepaint in that way? Was it a mark for a certain sub-tribe or raiding party?
Since the line passes under the eyes, I wondered if it had a practical significance. Perhaps it was to reduce the glare of the sun into the eyes. But in that case I would think that you would need dark paint ... and not white paint. So I am guessing that this was a specific identification for some reason.
thanks, dT
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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 17, 2012 3:32:49 GMT -5
Hi, and welcome here !
About the painting, there is a doubt if it was neither Chiricahua nor Apache. Some of us suggests, I Think remember, that it came from the photograph to have greaters images. I don't know, Chiricahua people from this forum could maybe answer...
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xframe
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by xframe on Feb 17, 2012 5:54:21 GMT -5
I remember that I once saw a BBC documentation about the Apaches and some guy explained that the "line" painting (he demonstrated how to create the red colour) had a kinda "spirituelly" function in terms of protection" ....But I admit I have no clue how well that information was researched. Like Coeurrouge I would love to listen to our Chiricahua members here regarding that question.... Oh yeah and welcome to dT
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Post by dT on Feb 17, 2012 12:21:29 GMT -5
Thanks - I will be out in Arizona next month. I will ask people there if they know about this system of facepaint, and whether there was a reason for it. If I find out anything, I will let you know.
dT
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Post by kayitah on Feb 17, 2012 13:39:14 GMT -5
I remember that I once saw a BBC documentation about the Apaches and some guy explained that the "line" painting (he demonstrated how to create the red colour) had a kinda "spirituelly" function in terms of protection" ....But I admit I have no clue how well that information was researched. Like Coeurrouge I would love to listen to our Chiricahua members here regarding that question.... Oh yeah and welcome to dT That's right, see here at 6:40 It was put on from the right cheek, over the nose and over the left cheek. Harlyn Geronimo, a descendant of Geronimo, explains it to Lucy Lawless. Very welcome, dt. It's great that you've joined us!
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Post by Montolzh on Feb 17, 2012 19:15:33 GMT -5
Diyi' ndi - POWER.
Painting the face is preparation for battle. It is not something that is done matter-of-factly, there are special prayers to be said to tap into your Power against your enemies. White, Red, Black are very common colors, you will intimidate your enemies. A single horizontal line is the most common, but there could be multiple lines and usually the chest is painted too. Us people know that Geronimo was not going to surrender at Los Embudos, and a tell tale sign for you is that he retreated from the talks, and blackened his face - He was using his n'da ke' ho' - his POWER.
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Post by penjady on Feb 17, 2012 20:41:18 GMT -5
Greetings ... I am new here. I am impressed by some of the detailed knowledge that permanent members have on this forum - especially by your ability to identify people and tribes from old photos. I have noticed that in many photos of Chiricahua during the days of raiding with Geronimo - that the warriors often wore one painted white line across their face. The line runs horizontally underneath the eyes. Can anyone tell me why the warriors used facepaint in that way? Was it a mark for a certain sub-tribe or raiding party? Since the line passes under the eyes, I wondered if it had a practical significance. Perhaps it was to reduce the glare of the sun into the eyes. But in that case I would think that you would need dark paint ... and not white paint. So I am guessing that this was a specific identification for some reason. thanks, dT Allow me to divulge a little but I am not the proper "authority" to release more. The use of white (red, etc.) with warriors , as Montolzh has stated, is a ceremony in itself. Prayers of protection, swiftness, accurateness, steadiness, etc., go into every part of a warrior from bi'kane to laa'. "Hands to feet" and every article they may have from arrows, headbands, necklaces, etc. The use of white (or red) is traced back to the giver of apache life, the most sacred individual of an Apache life.. Adzaneglesh "white painted woman" This being was very important in that she granted life to Apaches. In return, they gave proper homage to her and honored her in every opportunity. She is very powerful in that she can create life, bring back life, return individuals back to a young form. By having the white (red) on the face of an warrior, he is asking for help from this special woman to give him the power of life, especially in battle. The use of this special white powder continues today. I remember my grandpa having some on his self at all times. Some say it is just an distinction of bands, which I disagree with, because everything that an Apache does is sacred and has a meaning.
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Post by jasper4 on Feb 17, 2012 21:06:55 GMT -5
POWER many write or read on the INDE cannot know IT, which is not wrong or negative I post this for anyone who wants to know of POWER. I have known Ms Hugar for over 40 years and she is my Elder. First Dagote to DT good question with many good variations. The statement "everything that an Apache does is sacred and has a meaning" is VALID and since many Bands had various methods unique to each band or clan. The fact that western apache put paint unseen on their bodies IE behing the ears under the hair. The use of colors of red or white is also a way of each band, IE RED for the Mimbreno and others. This site is the most effective one I have come upon for American Indian history.
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xframe
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by xframe on Feb 17, 2012 21:07:47 GMT -5
Thank you Kayitah, Montolzh & Penjady - fantastic information you shared
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Post by jasper4 on Feb 17, 2012 21:14:49 GMT -5
I remember that I once saw a BBC documentation about the Apaches and some guy explained that the "line" painting (he demonstrated how to create the red colour) had a kinda "spirituelly" function in terms of protection" ....But I admit I have no clue how well that information was researched. Like Coeurrouge I would love to listen to our Chiricahua members here regarding that question.... Oh yeah and welcome to dT That's right, see here at 6:40 It was put on from the right cheek, over the nose and over the left cheek. Harlyn Geronimo, a descendant of Geronimo, explains it to Lucy Lawless. Very welcome, dt. It's great that you've joined us! It is left to right my friend
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Post by kayitah on Feb 18, 2012 13:32:53 GMT -5
Of course it is, thank you my friend for correcting me. I can't believe I mixed it up, sorry. Probably because I watched the video before again and because the picture is, strangely enough, mirror inverted.
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Post by Montolzh on Feb 18, 2012 16:27:32 GMT -5
In your defense Kayitah, to the one painting it is left to right, on the wearer it was right cheek to left cheek... ;D Video was very good. Yes, it explains everything is 'clockwise' When we give or receive blessings we turn clockwise, when we dance it is clockwise. When we meet a person, we pass to the left. We always go in the natural motion of the earth. To go otherwise is very bad, against all that is natural.
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Post by jasper4 on Feb 19, 2012 19:23:29 GMT -5
no defense needed as you are in your mind correct yet different bands did things many ways, or this Harlyn Zia then geronimo is one whose band were the southerrn or old mexico or this the left side is where the heart is so state as you will or imply your POV. No offense was meant to my friend or one mans heaven is another mans hell.
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Post by jasper4 on Feb 19, 2012 19:27:21 GMT -5
Of course it is, thank you my friend for correcting me. I can't believe I mixed it up, sorry. Probably because I watched the video before again and because the picture is, strangely enough, mirror inverted. no offense intended my friend thus forgot to add the vid had it the way you stated. yet the vid was made for other reasons, or growing up in the 1950's in OKLA. I was taught many ways and thing which seem today not to be as protrayed for the public, or this I knwo my lanugauge and also know of the WAR talk, which was given for medicine if going into WAR. Again no offense intended
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Post by dT on Feb 20, 2012 12:43:12 GMT -5
First, I want to thank the people who posted the link to the video. I appreciate very much your detailed memory of these things.
Next ... I want to thank Montolzh. Because there is the wisdom of a people buried in these actions - which look simple. Things which seem simple - are not so simple.
So I wondered to myself - why should the line be painted from left to right? Yes, it is related to the turning of the Earth. And how do the Apache relate to this turning ... certainly I would guess it is through their own knowledge of the motion of the stars and the sun. So let's consider this.
If I face to the NORTH, the sun will rise in the east and go to the west. From my point of view it will rise on my right hand, and set on my left hand.
But if I face to the SOUTH, the sun will rise on my left hand and set on my right hand.
So perhaps the direction of SOUTH plays an important part in the Apache world view. Or I could have things quite wrong.
Maybe if Montolzh is kind enough ... he might explain further.
dT
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