Chihenne/Chihinne - 'The Red Paint People' or 'Red People'

[ouroboros]

Through the years I have gathered many informations on the Chihinne/Chihenne and I am happy to share it. I will start with the many times asked question were the Chihinne a band of the Chricahua Apaches?

Although the anthropologist used to lump three – or four – Apache bands under the umbrella term ‘Chiricahua Apaches’ it should be emphasized that the central Nde have a different opinion on that matter. They did not perceive themselves as members of one ‘Chiricahua tribe’, but as members of three or four separate peoples, who are bound by kinship and cultural ties.

One of them – the so-called easternmost band – are the Chihinne or Chihenne, the ‘Red-Paint People’. The members of this people strongly disagree with the anthropologist who used to classify them as ‘Eastern Chiricahuas’

I have collected some statements by members of the Nde people which strongly emphasize that the Chihinne/Chihenne are not a band of the Chiricahua.

Lets start with James Kaywakla a member of the Warm Springs division of the Chihinne/Chihenne. Quoted from: Eve Ball (Author), James Kaywakla (Narrator), In the Days of Victorio: Recollections of a Warm Springs Apache, p. xiv:

‘I say peoples, though the White Eyes designated the members of all four different Apache bands as Chiricahua. This was an error, for only the tribes of Cochise and Chihuahua were true Chiricahua. In our own tongue we are Chihinne – Red People. This does not refer to the color of our skins, but to a band of red clay drawn across our faces. Juh was chief of the Nednhi Apaches, whose stronghold was in the Sierra Madre of Mexico. Geronimo was leader, but not chief of the Bedonkohes whose territory was around the headwaters of the Gila. Though closely associated, we were distinct groups’.

The second quotation is a statement of Asa Daklugie, the son of the formidable Nednhi nantan Juh (pronounced Whoa or Whoo) quoted from Eve Ball, Indeh: An Apache Odyssey, p. 22:

‘Cochise was chief of the Chokonen, called by the white people Chiricahua, but by us Chihuicahui. There was another band of Chokonen up along the Gila, whose territory extended into New Mexico and the Mogollons, and they were independent. Their chief, when Cochise was old, was the young Chihuahua. Though both military reports and the records of historians classify the Nednhi, Chihenne, and sometimes the Bedonkohe-as well as Cochise's bands Chiricahua, from our point of view they are mistaken. To us, even today, the classification is objectionable. Only the bands of Cochise and Chihuahua were true Chiricahua. At times bands joined forces, but not often. And there was no obligation to do so though mutual need sometimes occasioned it. If I understand these writers, white people seem incapable of understanding that these bands were separate, and my people could not comprehend that the villages in Mexico were not so’.

[ouroboros]

The eastern border of the Chihenne territory constituted the Rio Grande del Norte, a border river between them and the Mescalero Apaches. In 1846-7 Lieut. Col. William Hemsley Emory on his military reconnaissance noted that Red Sleeve (i.e. Mangas Coloradas), Black Knife (i.e. Baishan or Cuchillo Negro), and Lasady are “the three principal chiefs of the Apaches on the west of the Del Norte; Gomez is the headman of those on the east of the Del Norte”.

Both Mangas and Gómez made huge influence on the bands of the Chihenne. Mangas – probably a Bedonkohe by birth – was most likely a nantan of the Mimbres (“Willow”) local group of the Chihenne. However it would be mistaken to think that he was a principal chief of the whole Chihenne people. As noted by Jason Betzinez the Warm Springs local group (I fought with Geronimo, p. 9): “which we called Chihennes, never recognized Mangas as their chief”. The Warm Springs were led by Baishan/Cuchillo Negro, and after his death – by Tudeevia who was possibly the same man as that known to whites as Delgadito.

Gómez and after his death his son Venancio (Verancia) had an influence on the Chihenne. They both were leaders of the so-called Agua Nueva Apaches, who often classified as a band of the Mescaleros, could be in fact a separate and distinct group, or even an off-shoot of the Warm Springs.

In the treaty of 1842 between Mexican authorities and the Nde groups from Aguanueva region Gómez represented not the Mescalero Apaches but the Mimbres Apaches:

July 4, 1842

Treaty with the Mimbres Apaches

Captain Gomez, in agreement with Cigarrito and other chieftains from the area of Aguanueva, presented themselves yesterday to his Excellency the Governor and Commandant General of the Department and have celebrated a peace treaty whose articles are identical to those stipulated with the Mezcalero Jose Maria Maria, devoid of any differences other than Carrizal being the establishment which recognized Gomez and his men.

(La Luna, no. 57, Chihuahua, June 21, 1842.)

Link: books.google.pl/books?id=E4hxWwCClG0C&pg=PA167&dq=g%C3%B3mez+mezcalero&hl=pl&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Agua Nueva recognized the Chihenne as their kinsmen. The complex relationship between these two was characterised by Harry W. Baseheart as follows:

In February 1859, Venancio and Mateo, two leaders considered to be Agua Nueva, visited Steck at Apache Agency in order to disclaim participation in an engagement between U.S. soldiers and Mescalero at Dog Canyon. Steck reported that they “wish to remain west of the river [the Rio Grande] among the Mimbres band,” and directed them to “remain with the band between the agency and the Coppermines” until responsibility for the attack was fixed. He added: They wish to make their permanent home with the Mimbres band—a good beginning for a removal of this whole Band and if a campaign should be sent out I have no doubt many more will follow if they are permitted. The Mimbres band referred to by Steck was, of course, a part of the Chiricahua tcihene division; it is interesting to note that the area of tcihene exploitation in Mexico included the region to the north of Agua Nueva. In any case, the Mimbres and Agua Nuevas evidently were on friendly terms, though it may be surmised that the relationship was by no means as close as between the latter and the Mescalero.

Possibly, the Agua Nueva Apaches were the same as the “Blue Mountain” Apaches – “dziƚdak?ƚijende” or “Zitachisene”, who according to Percy Big Mouth were a “splinter group of the Warm Springs Apaches”:

Apparently another little-known band, the Blue Mountain Band, was closely related to the Lipans. A splinter group of the Warm Springs Apaches, they lived between Mescalero and the Rio Grande, from Socorro to El Paso. “I don’t know what became of them but Spanish came in from the south, tie them up and march them south. Three times they took them and made slaves of them, march them south. The few left joined the Lipans” (Percy Big Mouth, transcript of interview by Ball, 10 November 1954, Ball MSS.)
The possibility that Agua Nueva and Warm Springs Chihenne were closely related would explain close relationship between these two groups.

More on the Zitachieene: amertribes.proboards.com/thread/3411/tsebekinende-agua-nueva-zitachisene?page=1&scrollTo=26947

The Chihenne recognized the Mescaleros as their kinsfolk: Jason Betzinez's, I fought with Geronimo, p. 43:

“East of our Warm Springs reservation, across the Rio Grande, lay the reservation of our kinsfolk the Mescalero Apaches, Whenever these Indians had trouble among themselves or with the Mexicans or white people they would drift into our reservation for refuge”

[coeurrouge]

Dec 28, 2021 4:24:43 GMT -5 ouroboros said:

The eastern border of the Chihenne territory constituted the Rio Grande del Norte, a border river between them and the Mescalero Apaches. In 1846-7 Lieut. Col. William Hemsley Emory on his military reconnaissance noted that Red Sleeve (i.e. Mangas Coloradas), Black Knife (i.e. Baishan or Cuchillo Negro), and Lasady are “the three principal chiefs of the Apaches on the west of the Del Norte; Gomez is the headman of those on the east of the Del Norte”.

Both Mangas and Gómez made huge influence on the bands of the Chihenne. Mangas – probably a Bedonkohe by birth – was most likely a nantan of the Mimbres (“Willow”) local group of the Chihenne. However it would be mistaken to think that he was a principal chief of the whole Chihenne people. As noted by Jason Betzinez the Warm Springs local group (I fought with Geronimo, p. 9): “which we called Chihennes, never recognized Mangas as their chief”. The Warm Springs were led by Baishan/Cuchillo Negro, and after his death – by Tudeevia who was possibly the same man as that known to whites as Delgadito.

Gómez and after his death his son Venancio (Verancia) had an influence on the Chihenne. They both were leaders of the so-called Agua Nueva Apaches, who often classified as a band of the Mescaleros, could be in fact a separate and distinct group, or even an off-shoot of the Warm Springs.

In the treaty of 1842 between Mexican authorities and the Nde groups from Aguanueva region Gómez represented not the Mescalero Apaches but the Mimbres Apaches:

July 4, 1842

Treaty with the Mimbres Apaches

Captain Gomez, in agreement with Cigarrito and other chieftains from the area of Aguanueva, presented themselves yesterday to his Excellency the Governor and Commandant General of the Department and have celebrated a peace treaty whose articles are identical to those stipulated with the Mezcalero Jose Maria Maria, devoid of any differences other than Carrizal being the establishment which recognized Gomez and his men.

(La Luna, no. 57, Chihuahua, June 21, 1842.)

Link: books.google.pl/books?id=E4hxWwCClG0C&pg=PA167&dq=g%C3%B3mez+mezcalero&hl=pl&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Agua Nueva recognized the Chihenne as their kinsmen. The complex relationship between these two was characterised by Harry W. Baseheart as follows:

In February 1859, Venancio and Mateo, two leaders considered to be Agua Nueva, visited Steck at Apache Agency in order to disclaim participation in an engagement between U.S. soldiers and Mescalero at Dog Canyon. Steck reported that they “wish to remain west of the river [the Rio Grande] among the Mimbres band,” and directed them to “remain with the band between the agency and the Coppermines” until responsibility for the attack was fixed. He added: They wish to make their permanent home with the Mimbres band—a good beginning for a removal of this whole Band and if a campaign should be sent out I have no doubt many more will follow if they are permitted. The Mimbres band referred to by Steck was, of course, a part of the Chiricahua tcihene division; it is interesting to note that the area of tcihene exploitation in Mexico included the region to the north of Agua Nueva. In any case, the Mimbres and Agua Nuevas evidently were on friendly terms, though it may be surmised that the relationship was by no means as close as between the latter and the Mescalero.

Possibly, the Agua Nueva Apaches were the same as the “Blue Mountain” Apaches – “dziƚdak?ƚijende” or “Zitachisene”, who according to Percy Big Mouth were a “splinter group of the Warm Springs Apaches”:

Apparently another little-known band, the Blue Mountain Band, was closely related to the Lipans. A splinter group of the Warm Springs Apaches, they lived between Mescalero and the Rio Grande, from Socorro to El Paso. “I don’t know what became of them but Spanish came in from the south, tie them up and march them south. Three times they took them and made slaves of them, march them south. The few left joined the Lipans” (Percy Big Mouth, transcript of interview by Ball, 10 November 1954, Ball MSS.)
The possibility that Agua Nueva and Warm Springs Chihenne were closely related would explain close relationship between these two groups.

More on the Zitachieene: amertribes.proboards.com/thread/3411/tsebekinende-agua-nueva-zitachisene?page=1&scrollTo=26947

The Chihenne recognized the Mescaleros as their kinsfolk: Jason Betzinez's, I fought with Geronimo, p. 43:

“East of our Warm Springs reservation, across the Rio Grande, lay the reservation of our kinsfolk the Mescalero Apaches, Whenever these Indians had trouble among themselves or with the Mexicans or white people they would drift into our reservation for refuge”

I read somewhere that Nana could be Mescalero and became Chihenne by marrying a sister of Delgadito (his mocassin on Randall's photo in 1884, seemed to be not Chirihua' style). But it was also said he was a true Chihenne very acquainted with the Mescaleros. Maybe he was an Agua Nueva, from the Chihenne's band as you suggested.

[ouroboros]

Dec 28, 2021 17:22:40 GMT -5 coeurrouge said:

I read somewhere that Nana could be Mescalero and became Chihenne by marrying a sister of Delgadito (his mocassin on Randall's photo in 1884, seemed to be not Chirihua' style). But it was also said he was a true Chihenne very acquainted with the Mescaleros.

Many thanks coeurrouge, fascinating info! I will look for Nana's ancestry infos.

[coeurrouge]

This is my guess, based on the work Ouroboros did on Zitachisene's gota, books on Chihennes (Dan Thrapp's Victorio, Eve ball's book on Kaywaykla story, Bud Shapard's Loco and Sweeney's books on Mangas Coloradas and Cochise),geograghy location and the 1876's census of the Chihennes from the NARA.

At the beginning of my work of Naiche, I wrote this (about the time of Naiche's birth circa 1856) :
"2.2. A mixed gota named Ne-be-ke-yen-de of Bedonkohe-Chihenne Chiricahua located along the Santa Lucia Springs, near Piños Altos, had as Chief Kan-da-zis-tlishishen and headman his younger brother whose nickname was José Mangas.

2.3. In the East lived the Chihennes, more peaceful, whom in oral stories all the other bands came from. As I understand three strong and a smaller gotas composed this band.
One located on the most sacred land of the Chiricahua in Ojo Caliente. Jlin-tay-i-tith (Loco) became the chief after the tragic death of Ponce in 1854.
The second living south of the previous in the Mimbres was leading by Baishan (Cuchillo Negro), the most prominent and peaceful Chihenne’s Chief. He could be a band chief but because of the great influence of Kan-da-zis-tlishishen among the Chihennes, he was not. His subchiefs were Riñon and Bi-duye (Victorio).
The gota lived near Dzisl-ta-natal (Cook’s Peak) and had close relationship with the Mescalero Apaches. The chief was Tudeevia (Delgadito) successfully help by Kas-tziden (Nana). This gota was more distant with the Americans.
The small gota living near the abandoned mines of Santa Rita Del Cobre had as chief Itàn."

I think there was at this time two others Chiricahua gotas.

At the far South eastern of the Chiricahua's territory, no well know yet : Zitachisene's gota or the Blue Mountain/Agua Nueva's band. A mixed local group Chihenne/Mescalero. They were leaving East of the Rio Grande near El Paso and seemed to have close ties with Delgadito's chihenne gota.
As former chief Gomez, in 1856 the chief was Venancio, his son. A lot known men in 1876 census were sometimes identified as Mescaleros or as Chihennes (Blanco, Caballo, Antonio, Gregorio for example) I think Nana was borned in this gota and by marrying a sister of Delgadito, he joined his Chihenne's gota and in 1861 Nana would become the chief, reinforcing the ties with the Zitachisene. Zeekarn, a sister but more surely a cousin of Nana lived in Zitachisene group was apparently a daughter of Chief.
She was the maternal grand-mother of Kaywaykla. Her sons or nephews were Blanco, Suldeen and another younger brother of Blanco. Zeekarn (she was the old woman with white hair among the Tres Castillos' prisonners I think) had at least two daughters : Cleehn (the third wife of Loco) and Guyan (the wife of Kaathenay). Also in the 1876 census, there was a single man called Tonto in the same page than Blanco. Tonto means Crazy in English and Crazy was the english translation of the N'de name Massai. Massai looked for refuge in the Mescalero's reservation when he escaped the train.

At the far southwest of the Chihenne territory living along the Animas Mountains I think were another Chihenne's gota leading by Pluma (if not a Bedonkohe) certainly born circa 1790. Pluma was an important leader since 1820 to 1840 I think. They were close from the territory of Esqualine's Chokonen. In 1856, the gota seemed closer to the Chokonens and the subchief was maybe Miguel Tuerto and Pluma had maybe a niece or a daugther who married Chihuahua I guess (wife who died before 1872, I think). Aging and loosing influence, possibly the poisonning in Janos in 1857 and the Cochise's war whom Pluma was allied, reduced his gota to an extended's family ranchéria. Pluma was killed in july 1864 by US soldiers while he protected his family with rocks. I think, Kaathenay (born c.1858) be said to be a son of a chief, was his son as Bacutla (born 1840) the older, Nezulkide (born c.1845) and Kinzhuna (born c.1863), the youngest. Bacutla, Nzulkide and Kaathenay were, I think, the three Pluma I identified in the Chihenne's census.

[ouroboros]

Dec 30, 2021 16:13:18 GMT -5 coeurrouge said:

This is my guess, based on the work Ouroboros did on Zitachisene's gota, books on Chihennes (Dan Thrapp's Victorio, Eve ball's book on Kaywaykla story, Bud Shapard's Loco and Sweeney's books on Mangas Coloradas and Cochise),geograghy location and the 1876's census of the Chihennes from the NARA.

At the beginning of my work of Naiche, I wrote this (about the time of Naiche's birth circa 1856) :
"2.2. A mixed gota named Ne-be-ke-yen-de of Bedonkohe-Chihenne Chiricahua located along the Santa Lucia Springs, near Piños Altos, had as Chief Kan-da-zis-tlishishen and headman his younger brother whose nickname was José Mangas.

2.3. In the East lived the Chihennes, more peaceful, whom in oral stories all the other bands came from. As I understand three strong and a smaller gotas composed this band.
One located on the most sacred land of the Chiricahua in Ojo Caliente. Jlin-tay-i-tith (Loco) became the chief after the tragic death of Ponce in 1854.
The second living south of the previous in the Mimbres was leading by Baishan (Cuchillo Negro), the most prominent and peaceful Chihenne’s Chief. He could be a band chief but because of the great influence of Kan-da-zis-tlishishen among the Chihennes, he was not. His subchiefs were Riñon and Bi-duye (Victorio).
The gota lived near Dzisl-ta-natal (Cook’s Peak) and had close relationship with the Mescalero Apaches. The chief was Tudeevia (Delgadito) successfully help by Kas-tziden (Nana). This gota was more distant with the Americans.
The small gota living near the abandoned mines of Santa Rita Del Cobre had as chief Itàn."

I think there was at this time two others Chiricahua gotas.

At the far South eastern of the Chiricahua's territory, no well know yet : Zitachisene's gota or the Blue Mountain/Agua Nueva's band. A mixed local group Chihenne/Mescalero. They were leaving East of the Rio Grande near El Paso and seemed to have close ties with Delgadito's chihenne gota.
As former chief Gomez, in 1856 the chief was Venancio, his son. A lot known men in 1876 census were sometimes identified as Mescaleros or as Chihennes (Blanco, Caballo, Antonio, Gregorio for example) I think Nana was borned in this gota and by marrying a sister of Delgadito, he joined his Chihenne's gota and in 1861 Nana would become the chief, reinforcing the ties with the Zitachisene. Zeekarn, a sister but more surely a cousin of Nana lived in Zitachisene group was apparently a daughter of Chief.
She was the maternal grand-mother of Kaywaykla. Her sons or nephews were Blanco, Suldeen and another younger brother of Blanco. Zeekarn (she was the old woman with white hair among the Tres Castillos' prisonners I think)<button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button><button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> had at least two daughters : Cleehn (the third wife of Loco) and Guyan (the wife of Kaathenay). Also in the 1876 census, there was a single man called Tonto in the same page than Blanco. Tonto means Crazy in English and Crazy was the english translation of the N'de name Massai. Massai looked for refuge in the Mescalero's reservation when he escaped the train.

At the far southwest of the Chihenne territory living along the Animas Mountains I think were another Chihenne's gota leading by Pluma (if not a Bedonkohe) certainly born circa 1790. Pluma was an important leader since 1820 to 1840 I think. They were close from the territory of Esqualine's Chokonen. In 1856, the gota seemed closer to the Chokonens and the subchief was maybe Miguel Tuerto and Pluma had maybe a niece or a daugther who married Chihuahua I guess (wife who died before 1872, I think). Aging and loosing influence, possibly the poisonning in Janos in 1857 and the Cochise's war whom Pluma was allied, reduced his gota to an extended's family ranchéria. Pluma was killed in july 1864 by US soldiers while he protected his family with rocks. I think, Kaathenay (born c.1858) be said to be a son of a chief, was his son as Bacutla (born 1840) the older, Nezulkide (born c.1845) and Kinzhuna (born c.1863), the youngest. Bacutla, Nzulkide and Kaathenay were, I think, the three Pluma I identified in the Chihenne's census.

An excellent post coeurrouge! A superb analysis of the Chihenne gotas.

I tried to look for some infos on Nana and the Mescaleros, and there is a an info by Paul Andrew Hutton, The Apache Wars: The Hunt for Geronimo, the Apache Kid, and the Captive Boy, p. 231, that:

Nana's first wife was a Mescalero , and he still had many relatives and friends in the Sierra Blanca who might provide sanctuary to their Warm Springs cousin.

Link: books.google.pl/books?id=td5UCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA231&dq=Nantan+Nana+Mescaleros&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjYkPyRuI71AhXQxIsKHSSHBAgQ6AF6BAgJEAI#v=onepage&q=Nantan%20Nana%20Mescaleros&f=false

Unfortunatly, Hutton does not provide the source from which he took this info, so its value is rather average.

[ouroboros]

I searched for some infos on Mescalero-Chihenne-Agua Nueva relations in Harry Basehaert, Mescalero Apache subsistence patterns and socio-political organization, p. 86:

While the Rio Grande served as the formal boundary between Mescalero and Chiricehua, groups from both tribes crossed into one another's territory. In 1859, Venancio and Mateo, two leaders usually associated with the “Agua Nueva” Mescalero, crossed the river and requested Agent Steck to permit them to remain among their Mimbres Apache kinsmen west of the Rio Grande. Eleven years later Tomascito, said to be a Mescalero “chief”, visited Lt. Drew west of the river and asked to join Loco's Chiricahua with his followers. Lt. Hennisee reported the presence of 49 Mescalero at the Canada Alamosa by July 1870; by October, rations were issued to 114 Mescalero and 676 Chiricahua at that place.

[ouroboros]

In 1846-7 Lieut. Col. William Hemsley Emory on his military reconnaissance noted that Red Sleeve (i.e. Mangas Coloradas), Black Knife (i.e. Baishan or Cuchillo Negro), and Lasady are “the three principal chiefs of the Apaches on the west of the Del Norte [..].

I did not explain who is the third of the three mentioned chiefs. I am not sure but possibly under the name "Lasady" hides the Chihenne nantan who was known to whites and Mexicans as Loco.

One argument for this identification is that an Apache called Balatchu, who was contemporary to Loco, claimed that Loco's Apache name was "Lidayisil". Therefore I am inclined to believe that it is possible that Lasady is a corruption of the name Lidayisil

On Loco, see Bud Shapard, Chief Loco: Apache Peacemaker: books.google.pl/books?id=XzclSmTbTQQC&pg=PA275&dq=loco+bud+shepard&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiR2MPuxsL1AhVmmIsKHSPoC5cQ6AF6BAgCEAI#v=onepage&q=loco%20bud%20shepard&f=false

[coeurrouge]

Jan 21, 2022 5:07:04 GMT -5 ouroboros said:

In 1846-7 Lieut. Col. William Hemsley Emory on his military reconnaissance noted that Red Sleeve (i.e. Mangas Coloradas), Black Knife (i.e. Baishan or Cuchillo Negro), and Lasady are “the three principal chiefs of the Apaches on the west of the Del Norte [..].

I did not explain who is the third of the three mentioned chiefs. I am not sure but possibly under the name "Lasady" hides the Chihenne nantan who was known to whites and Mexicans as Loco.

One argument for this identification is that an Apache called Balatchu, who was contemporary to Loco, claimed that Loco's Apache name was "Lidayisil". Therefore I am inclined to believe that it is possible that Lasady is a corruption of the name Lidayisil

On Loco, see Bud Shapard, Chief Loco: Apache Peacemaker: books.google.pl/books?id=XzclSmTbTQQC&pg=PA275&dq=loco+bud+shepard&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiR2MPuxsL1AhVmmIsKHSPoC5cQ6AF6BAgCEAI#v=onepage&q=loco%20bud%20shepard&f=false

I do not think he was Loco because Loco was twenty five to thrity years old and became a prominent chief after the death of Ponce in 1855. if Col.Hemsley met the chiefs near Paso del Norte, Lasady was maybe Lacérès, the prominent chief amont the Nednhis who was close to the Chihennes during the 1840's.

[ouroboros]

Jan 21, 2022 8:58:07 GMT -5 coeurrouge said:

I do not think he was Loco because Loco was twenty five to thrity years old and became a prominent chief after the death of Ponce in 1855. if Col.Hemsley met the chiefs near Paso del Norte, Lasady was maybe Lacérès, the prominent chief amont the Nednhis who was close to the Chihennes during the 1840's.

Yes, I agree that your identification of Lasady with Laceres is more possible than mine.

Couerrouge, I wanted to ask you whether you know something of a Chihenne leader Jose Cito or Josecito? I've read that governor Meriwhether classified him as a Gila Apache.

I am curious because there was a Mescalero Leader called Josecito or Jose Cito. I wonder whether they are the same person, or two separate.

[coeurrouge]

There was two chief or leader nicknamed Josecito during the 1850's; One was a Sierra Blanca Mescalero and the other a Chihenne or Bedonkohe. But I do not find yet some informations; It was certainly a very common nicknam at this period... Il will checked if I find something interresting.

In 1878, there is a Chihenne who joined Nana in the Mescalero's reservation whose nickname was Joe.

[ouroboros]

Jan 21, 2022 17:03:58 GMT -5 coeurrouge said:

There was two chief or leader nicknamed Josecito during the 1850's; One was a Sierra Blanca Mescalero and the other a Chihenne or Bedonkohe. But I do not find yet some informations; It was certainly a very common nicknam at this period... Il will checked if I find something interresting.

Many thanks, Coeurrouge!

I have found a comment in a footnote of WILLIAM CARR LANE, DIARY which supports your contention :

Jose Nuevo and Josecito. "This name Josecito occurs among various Apache groups. There was one often mentioned who lived on the Mimbres river, quite distinct from the Indian of the same name among the Mescaleros. I feel certain that this Josecito was of the Mimbres groupo" Schroeder. ibid. Jose Nuevo was also a Mimbres tribe member. Schroeder, ibid.

You can download Lane's Diary from: digitalrepository.unm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1940&context=nmhr

[coeurrouge]

I find on Mangas Coloradas' biography by Sweeney. Josécito was a Chihenne chief of a local group living between the Mimbres mounts and the Rio Grande (I will have to update again my description of the Chihenne's gotas) .

Below this is my guess:
Apparently his local group was about 100-120 people among them 20 to 25 warriors. In 1857, the Chihennes had four principal Chiefs Baishan (Cuchillo Negro), Tudeevia (Delgadito), Itan and Josécito. There were three others gota's chiefs Venancio (as previously explain in this thread, Pluma's one and the youngest, Jlin-tay-i-tith (Loco).
I think Josécito was leading his gota since 1840 or 1845. On Sweeney's book, Josécito disappearred from records in 1857.

1857 was a terrible year for the Chihennes. Baishan was killed by blue soldiers of Bonneville, mistakened the ranchéria as an hostile one. Itan was killed with 7 of his warriors, if I remembered right, by blue soldiers. the soldiers pursued Itan after he raided settlements along the Rio Grande. and while the Chiricahuas were refugees in Janos (most of them Chihennes and Nednis) the Chihuahua officials, there, poisoned them killing between 50 to 150 people. I think Josécito died at Janos with a lot of his local group, poisoned. After this local group scattered and joined Tudeevia's gota, Venancia's one or the one of Baishan, newly led by Riñon.

[ouroboros]

As for Venancio and the Agua Nueva Apaches, there is a suggestion by Julio L. Betancourt et al., Cultural Recources on the Lincoln National Forest, p. 57, that he might be a non-Mescalero:

Informants differed as to whether affinities were more with the Chiricahuas than with the Mescalero. From Steck's letters, it is known that the Agua Nueva had close ties with the Mimbres division of the Chiricahua (Steck 1859a). On the other hand, Venancio's father-in-law was the Mescalero chief Marcos (Reeve 1858). Basehart thinks that the correlation of the Agua Nueva with his informants' tsebekinende group is reasonable, adding that the re­sulting group was Mescalero.

A second alternative agrees with the correlation, but argues that the group was an independent band linked to both the Mescalero and the Chiricahua. Since the significant kinship unit of the Mescalero is the matrilocal extended family, it is plausible that a non-Mescalero like Venancio could play a leading role in a band mainly composed of local Mescalero.

You can download this book from here: foresthistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/cultres-35.pdf

 

[Lynda Sanchez]

good source for information on Victorio. This book has now been digitzied.

And here's the link to the Hembrillo Battlefield (Victorio Wars) report on the WSMR museum website:

wsmrmuseum.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Hembrillo-Battlefield-Report-HSR-Report-9730.pdf

and for those who missed the link about Apache Warriors (some of them like Yanosha, Daklugie, Kanseah, Ishtee, Alberta Begay (Massai's daughter) telling their side to Eve Ball:
Apache Warriors tell their side to Eve Ball


Lynda