ann
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Post by ann on Feb 12, 2019 9:25:20 GMT -5
It can be argued that Mangas Coloradas controlled the most territory and influenced the most amount of warriors in Apache history. Followed by Cochise. Those two in my opinion are way ahead of the other Apache Chiefs when it comes to who had the most influence. I believe that Victorio was the most skilled Apache commander, and Geronimo the most ruthless. The most fearsome Apache fighting unit in Apache history, in my opinion belongs to Mangas Coloradas. Until the arrival of the California Column in 1861 and the Battle of Apache PAss, Mangas Coloradas was the Lord of Apacheria. I agree with your observation. |
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natethegreat
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Long live the Indigenous Tribes of North America
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Post by natethegreat on Feb 12, 2019 12:29:23 GMT -5
No mention of Ulzanna here? He was strong and very skilled. I dont know anything about Miguel Narbonna. This is the first time that i learned he was the leader of Cochise's band, before Cochise took over. Very interesting. I hope that more people will talk about Miguel. The only event I know about Ulzana is "Ulzana's Raid' in November 1885. He led 10 warriors across 1,200 miles of the Southwest. Killing and raiding white settlements for horses, food, and ammunition. He also struck the Fort Apache Reservation killing men, women, and children. It's possible he was looking for his family members. He left while taking Chiricahua women and children with him. Does anyone know if Ulzana participated in any other battles or raids? Which band was he a member of? Ulzana was the older brother of Chihuahua, and was a Bedonkohe like Geronimo. From the western Mogollan mountains. It's most likely that Ulzana followed Geronimo. |
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Post by dT on Feb 12, 2019 22:07:22 GMT -5
There was an interesting discussion a long time back. A Russian man figured it out, after very careful analysis of Apache history. The events happened when Geronimo escaped captivity. Dont ask me which escape it was, Geronimo jumped the res. several times. ANYWAY Geronimo headed south towards the border with Mexico, accompanied by a band of warriors and women.
Ulzanna split off east and was not detected. If i remember, ULzanna had a brother, somebody important. Ulzannas's band raided many houses and places, stealing a lot of weapons and killing people. They covered a lot of ground, and mounted many fierce attacks. This is the reason why i mentioned Ulzanna as a warrior. He was very skilled, and lethal.
The role of Ulzanna in all of this is not appreciated by many people. Geronimo got the blame for all of the bloodshed. In reality, Geronimo crossed the border quickly and it was Ulzanna's band that did a lot of the killing. Therefore when Geronimo complained later that he was blamed for many things he did not do ... he was telling the truth.
The reason I asked about Miguel Narbonno (and Mangas) ... in the early years while the US Civil War was raging, there was nothing to stop the Apache bands. There was very little enforcement in the Arizona Territory. The Apaches roamed freely and dominated the Arizona landscape. There are reports of Apache attacks even on the outskirts of Tucson. It is fair to say, no-one was safe from them. But of course, the Apaches were defending their own land. So from their point of view, the white people were invaders. I dont know who did the fighting near Tucson ... Miguel Narbonno or Mangas (or both). They were a fearsome bunch, that is for sure.
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natethegreat
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Post by natethegreat on Mar 14, 2019 14:11:58 GMT -5
Was Miguel Narbona still alive in 1862? Geronimo said that Cochise and Mangas Coloradas were very pleased when one day their scouts reported that the white soldiers suddenly left their defenses and were marching east by the hundreds. At this point Mangas and Cochise were stunned and believed that the war Mangas, Cochise, Victorio, and Nana had waged since the Bascom Affair was the reason for the sudden withdraw. They did not know about the Civil War..........but they did see white soldiers wearing blue and wearing grey and figured the whites were heading east to fight a war.
At this time Mangas Coloradas was the undisputed lord of Apacheria and the Chiricahua Apache without a doubt controlled the highways. Unfortunately Union Col. Carleton and his 2,500 strong California Column were giving chase to the retreating Confederates and needed water, and the legendary Battle of Apache Pass was fought. Give credit to the 120 men who stayed behind to guard the water and faced down 500 Apache warriors. Those brave men advanced under fire and outnumbered and re positioned their artillery with devastating effect on the Apache band being led by Cochise who were firing down 300 feet from the protection of the hills.
Captain Cremony's men delivered devastating losses to the Chiricahua Apache and one low ranking private who had his horse shot from underneath him was being advanced on by Geronimo, Mangas Coloradas and 5 other warriors, facing a certain death. When he shot Chief Mangas in the chest, and to his surprise Geronimo and the other warriors picked up the wounded Chief and carried him off the field to recieve medical care in Janos. Cochise's band followed them away. From that time on Apache Pass and the water source was in Union control.
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Post by ouroboros on Mar 15, 2019 4:03:15 GMT -5
According to Jason Betzinez, the most feared Band were the Nednais under Juh. They were entirely devoted to raiding and warfare and used every opportunity to fight with every possible enemy. Percy Bigmouth relates a story according to which the Nednais in alliance with Mescaleros and Lipans defeated a large Comanche war party.
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natethegreat
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Post by natethegreat on Mar 24, 2019 15:33:28 GMT -5
The Nednhis lives in such a harsh environment they could not farm or hunt. They were surrounded by enemies, Mexicans, on all sides. They were expert mountain and desert survivalist. They survived by raiding and killing. Chief Juh was an expert military commander and his bravado attracted many young aspiring Chiricahua warriors, and warriors from outside the tribe. When things got bad he has safe places to go.
Juh's band was very dangerous.
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Post by ouroboros on Apr 19, 2019 14:45:20 GMT -5
Was Miguel Narbona still alive in 1862? No, Sweeney dates his death about 1856 (idem, Cochise: Chiricahua Apache Chief, p. 61) |
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natethegreat
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Post by natethegreat on May 8, 2019 9:58:40 GMT -5
Was Miguel Narbona still alive in 1862? No, Sweeney dates his death about 1856 (idem, Cochise: Chiricahua Apache Chief, p. 61) Thank you |
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Post by jasper4 on May 29, 2019 13:52:55 GMT -5
According to Jason Betzinez, the most feared Band were the Nednais under Juh. They were entirely devoted to raiding and warfare and used every opportunity to fight with every possible enemy. Percy Bigmouth relates a story according to which the Nednais in alliance with Mescaleros and Lipans defeated a large Comanche war party. true or they were called the enemy people. |
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Post by josephine on Aug 14, 2019 17:19:55 GMT -5
In my view, Picax-ande (Brazo Fuerte) in the eighteenth century and Kan-da-zis Tlishishen (Mangas Coloradas) in the nineteenth century were the most powerful Apache band leaders.
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Post by ouroboros on Aug 15, 2019 1:06:29 GMT -5
Lets make another mention of a not-well known Chiricahua nantan, who was in his times feared as a - as Sweneey calls him - "inveterate raider and killer". He is known as Yaque, Yaqui or Old Jack. A short description of this Chokonen raider:
"Yaque, or Yaqui, was a first-rate Chokonen incorrigible. Born about 1820, he was one of the hostiles, who, while living at peace with Janos in 1843-44 and 1850-51, led repeated raids into Sonora, even boasting about several murders he committed. He was probably the leader referred to by Trevis and Cozzens at Apache Pass in 1959-60 as Old Jack, probably corruption of Yaque. Old Jack’s belligerent personality seems to fit Yaque, who passed from the scene in the early 1860s."
Quoted from: E. Sweneey, Cochise: Chiricahua Apache Chief, p. 421 endnote 22
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Post by penjady on Aug 20, 2019 9:42:00 GMT -5
The most feared Apache was an Apache that had no fear of death. And the way they grew up, that was all of them.
These names, although raise awareness on who they are, are one of thousands that fought for their way of life. They get the "press" now but take a regular war, for example, now... most of the MOH always acknowledge someone else that was braver, more in tuned with war movements, more of a soldier in every sense of the word... But thru an act of bravery, they got the award. Very deserving although. But there was always someone there that was better.
Mangas Coloradas looked up to someone who was braver. Geronimo looked up to someone who was braver. Cochise looked up to someone who was braver. And so on. And being Apache, it was their duty to do that same and do the best to protect their way of life.
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natethegreat
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Post by natethegreat on Sept 4, 2019 8:08:43 GMT -5
A hard fought battle for their way of life. From contact with the Spaniards in the 1550's until Geronimo surrendered in 1886. A way of life that endured for thousands of years. Even before the Apache, there were thousands of other indians. The Hohokam, the Pueblo, the Anasazi. There were peoples in the Southwest before Jesus Christ was born. Living the very near same way of life of hunting and gathering. Of course the Horse was the first real change to the Native American way of life, and then the Fur Trade completely ruined the Native way of life. I wish I could go back to the Great Plains, in the 1600's, and live the life of a Brave. A young brave hunting and providing for the village. The sunsets, the sunrise, the vast empty Plains. Before the arrival of the White Man.
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Post by ouroboros on Sept 7, 2019 4:24:50 GMT -5
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Post by rjprice on Sept 7, 2019 11:46:04 GMT -5
Does anyone have any further info on the Tsokanende leader Yrigollen? I'm helping an Apache friend do his genealogy and the last name of Yrigollen is coming up through his fathers side.
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