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Post by W. Smoke on Jun 13, 2011 14:52:26 GMT -5
On Man Afraid of His Horses I & II... family;
Man Afraid I born 1800... death 1889; aged 88
He was the 1st born son of Smoke & his 2nd wife Comes out slow woman!
Man Afraid had several wives... he had from them;
Man Afraid II, Clown Horse, Bull Bear, Black Mountain Sheep & Red Star.
"this Bull bear; Man Afraid I named his 3rd son as Bull bear in the honor of his brother Bull bear III"
Man Afraid I's headdress; when the miners & Buffalo hunters were in the area by the lakes, rivers & ect. in early 1800's! Man Afraid got fearious over this, so he went on a war path & killed the miners & hunters by himself... when Man afraid killed them, he cut off their fingers to keep them! so they wouldn't make their journey through other side but wander the earth forever & he took those fingers for his trophies! when Man afraid reach the status of an headman in 1835... they made a headress for him... few of the fingers were put on the headdress!
The headress were like his father's headress but it wasn't long as his father's headdress!
Man afraid I pass the headdress down to his son Man afraid II before his death in 1889!
Man afraid II pass the headdress down to his son Frank Afraid of His Horses before his death in 1900!
Frank Afraid of His Horses pass the headdress down to his son Paul Afraid of His Horses before his death in 1943 but Paul died in a construction accident before... so Paul's cousin Zoey Afraid of His Horses took the headdress & kept it!
Zoey Afraid of His Horses pass the headdress down to Paul's son Ed Afraid of His Horses before her death!
Ed has the headdress now & he’s an modern-day warrior of the Toklala’s Warriors/Veterans Society of today!
Frank's mother was Stands By Her Word!
Amos's mother was Bear robe woman!
Contact: W. Smoke
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Post by kingsleybray on Jun 13, 2011 16:53:33 GMT -5
Thanks once again, Wendyll, this is fascinating information.
Can you tell me what was the relationship between Man Afraid no. 1 and Bull Bear I. Man Afraid called Bull Bear III his 'brother'. You said earlier there was a relationship btw Smoke and Bull Bear.
The headdress that Man Afraid passed down in his family. Can you describe it - or put up a picture if you and Ed Afraid of His Horses feel it appropriate. Please assure Ed I would be asking out of deep respect for his family.
You mention it was like Smoke's headdress. Did it have a trailer, and horns? Was it a society warbonnet? The Wichiska society had an officer who wore a trailer headdress with two split buffalo horns attached to the brow band.
Thanks again - Wopila ota
Kingsley
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Post by hreinn on Jun 13, 2011 20:49:39 GMT -5
Wendell Smoke: Thanks for your answer regarding Bull Bear. Good to hear that you got this information from one of Bull Bear's descendant. Neither Hyde [1] nor Hardorff [2] gives a reference to their source(s) regarding Bull Bear, One Eye (aka Le Borgne), Bear Robe, Henry Chatillion, Hay Leg (daughter of Bear Robe and Henry Chatillion) and Young Man Afraid of His Horse. Neither Hyde nor Hardorff includes all 6 persons at the same time. Neither of them mentions the name Hay Leg. The name Hay Leg is from HinTamaheca on the website Oyate Research Center [3]. When Hyde and Hardorff write about these people, they close by discuss Francis Parkman. So most likely, Francis Parkman's writings was their source. Parkman's writings were first published in a magazine in 1847 and first published in a book in 1849 (and many times since). Since a modern descendant of Bull Bear 1 don't recognize One Eye (aka Le Borgne) as a brother to Bull Bear 1. It must mean that Parkman and/or other authors have fallen into the "brothers" trap. This matter about Bull Bear, One Eye (Le Borgne), Bear Robe, Henry Chattilion, Hay Leg and Young Man Afraid of His Horse has to be studied better. There are several things which don't add up: 1. One Eye (aka Le Borgne) is not Bull Bear's 1 brother. 2. A wife of Henry Chatillion died in the summer 1846. But somewhere I read that he had 2 Native American wives. So perhaps it was not Bear Robe who died in 1846. 3. According to HinTamaheca [1], Hay Leg the daughter of Henry Chattilion and Bear Robe was born in 1853 = 7 years after 1846. So if Bear Robe was her mother, then Bear Robe did not die in 1846. 4. Perhaps there is a confusion between Bull Bear 1 and Bull Bear 2 among later authors interpretation of Parkman's writing. 5. Perhaps the biological father of Bear Robe was One Eye (aka Le Borgne) but not Bull Bear 1. It is perhaps a misunderstanding by Parkman that it was Bull Bear 1 who was her blood father. Due to the "brothers" trap = the different meaning between Parkman's society vs. the Lakota society on the terms brothers and fathers. Le Borgne (aka One Eye) is the only Lakota I know of, who had a French name. Perhaps he got his French name because his son-in-law was a French man; that is Henry Chatillion. Perhaps the descendants of Young Man Afraid of His Horse can clear this up ? Hreinn Reference: 1. Hyde (1937, 1975) "Red Cloud's Folk, pages 59-60. 2. Hardorff (2001) "The Death of Crazy Horse" page 39. 3. oyate1.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ancestry&action=display&thread=1748 |
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Post by hreinn on Jun 13, 2011 21:09:08 GMT -5
Kingsley: Thanks for your detailed discussion about the Oyuhpe and also the various splittings of the Lakotas. HinTamaheca wrote [1]: Old Man Afraid of His Horse married in 1856 to Medicine Woman (b. 1830 – d. unknown), daughter of unknown. Known children: 1. Move {female} (b. 1856 - d. unknown) 2. White {female} (b. 1873 – d. unknown) 3. Used Up Arrows {male} (b. 1882 – d. unknown) A later update: I can't understand HinTamaheca presentation in other way than he means Old Man Afraid. But based on all birth dates, this must be a wife and children of Young Man Afraid. As I understand what Wendell Smoke has said earlier. Then Bull Bear 1 + Ulala (aka Owns Spotted Horse Woman) married and had together 1 boy = Bull Bear 3. Bull Bear 3 was adopted by Smoke and was therefore a "brother" to Old Man Afraid of His Horse. There is one assumption in this "story" on my behalf; Bull Bear 3 was the son of Bull Bear 1 and Ulala (aka Owns Spotted Horse Woman). The Hunkpatila of 1839 corresponds to, or is a continuation of, the Oglala proper band noted by Lewis and Clark in 1804. Did Lewis & Clark write in their journals the exact phrase "Oglala proper" ? If it has been published in that way in books about their journals. Is it possible that the authors and/or editors of those books have "translated" Hunkpatila into Oglala proper ? I thought Lewis & Clark only met Yankton and Miniconju of the Dakota/Lakota nation, but never Oglala. Do you have anything more on Yellow Eagle ?  Hreinn Reference: 1. oyate1.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ancestry&action=display&thread=1748 |
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Post by W. Smoke on Jun 13, 2011 21:31:42 GMT -5
kingsleybray,
Smoke & Bull bear were cousin through their mother & father;
Smoke's mother Looking walker woman was the sister of Bull bear's father Stone knife!
After Bull bear's death in 1841, Smoke took Bull bear III into his household!
Bull bear III was a nephew of Smoke!
Man afraid I was a nephew of Bull bear!
But after Smoke took Bull bear III in...
Smoke adopted Bull bear III as a son!
So that's how Man afraid I & Bull bear III were brothers!
The Man afraid I's headdress; Ed just said this... the headdress & the trailer's eagle feathers are old & bittle... it still have those fingers on it... Ed put it on once & it was perfect length to him!
the Smoke's headdress; Chief Smoke's headdress wasn't just another ordinary headdress. In fact it wasn't like any other chief's headdress it was amazingly detailed and designed with the finest and longest eagle feathers available. It was longer than Chief Touch the Clouds's headdress, and it had special significance. Indeed it was most honored and sacred among the Lakotas. When Chief Smoke stood or walked in full headdress, there was a magnificent train of eagle feathers trailing or dragging on the ground for many feet behind him. He earned these eagle feathers one by one. The Lakota people made and awarded him this headdress for his status as a great warrior as well as his many good deeds and a life devoted to and for his people. Chief Smoke’s height was 6’5, and his weight was at least 250 pounds but he was muscular and stature.
It did not have any horns or it was not an society's headdress!
Contact: W. Smoke
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Post by W. Smoke on Jun 13, 2011 21:45:51 GMT -5
hreinn,
No no.... Bull bear III 's mother was Not Ulala aka Spotted horse woman!
Bull bear III's mother was of the O'Sage, Ponca or southern-southern Cheyenne from the Kansas territory!
Bull bear III was a nephew of Smoke & Bull bear III was Not a gandson to Smoke!
Bull bear & Ulala did not have any children!
Contact: W. Smoke
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Post by kingsleybray on Jun 14, 2011 1:30:23 GMT -5
hreinn On their ascent of the Missouri River Lewis & Clark met the Yankton (end August 1804) and the Brule (end September 1804). There were likely Oglalas and other Tetons visiting with the Brules at the time of the meeting, but L&C met no separate camps of the Oglalas, Miniconjous, Saones, or Yanktonais. The Lewis & Clark journals contain a table of Lakota divisions and sub-groups. This was derived from their meeting both with Indians and with traders like Pierre Dorion Sr., P. A. Tabeau and Hugh Heney. It gives the Oglala as the "Okandanda", which is the D-Dakota form of the name Oglala. It then breaks down the Okandanda into two main bands Okandanda [proper] Sheo One of their sources was the trader P.A. Tabeau, whose contemporary table presents the "Okondanas" with the same two main bands Okondanas [proper] Chihaut So, the names Sheo or Chihaut are attempts at writing in later orthographies Siyo or Shiyo, i.e. the prairie chicken or sharp-tail grouse. As Hyde says this band disappears from later Oglala band lists. It does appear among the Lower Brules. The other band is of course the Oglala Proper or True Oglala of later years. Hyde transposed the chiefs in Lewis & Clark's table. L&C table "Oasechar" as the chief of the Shiyo, and "Wahtarpa" as the chief of the Oglala proper. These names probably do correspond, as Hyde first suggested, to the well-known chiefs' names Bad Wound (Owe-shicha) and Stabber (Wachape). The first contemporary ref. to the Hunkpatila band is that of Nicollet in 1839. That's what I meant by saying it represents a continuation of the Oglala proper. Remember Tabeau and L&C both state that each of the major bands they name had sub-divisions. I suspect Hunkpatila was such a sub-division of the Oglala proper in 1804. This 'nesting' of names is common, where a sub-band name in generation (a) becaomes the larger band name by generation (b). An example among the Brule would that of the associated Kiyuksa and Wacheunpa (Meat Roaster) bands. In 1804 we get the Wacheunpa (Tabeau: "Watchioutairhe") and in 1839 (Nicollet) we get the Kiyuksa listed. Although it does not name bands, Hyde suggested that the list of signatories to the Oglala Treaty of 1825, with its distinctive four pairs of chiefs and warriors, embodies the contemporary tribal structure. He suggested that the first pairing, chief Standing Bull and warrior Black Elk, represented the True Oglala. In fact Makula told Mekeel that the Standing Bull family belonged to the Hunkpatila. In 1890 Hay Leg is listed as the wife of Very Good, a brother of Young Man Afraid of His Horse. After YMAfraid died in 1893 Very Good was known as Young Man Afraid of His Horse, and confusion set in about Hay Leg. She was not married to the 'real' Young Man Afraid. Yellow Eagle. There were at least two, possibly three or even four leaders of this name in the 19th c. We have the chief of the Hunkpatila band as named by Nicollet in 1839. YE is also tabled by Thaddeus Culbertson as an Oglala chief in 1850. He is perhaps the same man identified as a brother of Old Man Afraid of His Horse and reported killed in a fall from his horse in summer 1870. A productive question would be whether or how the Yellow Eagles were/are related to the American Horse family. The Mekeel info' states that American Horse's father was Three Bears (also known as Sitting Bear), and that Three Bears' father was the original Sitting Bear (also known as Brown Eagle Tail). The names Yellow Eagle and Brown Eagle Tail I think must be connected. The Lakota colour terms for brown (gi) and yellow (zi) are related and often conflated. W. Smoke's information is deepening our understanding of early Oglala bands and leadership. If we could establish the relations between the Standing Bull, the American Horse and the Yellow Eagle-Man Afraid of His horse tiwahes, I think we would be in a strong position to reconstruct the historical development of the Oglala proper-Hunkpatila band. As Wendyll's info' indicates, and Ephriam's analysis suggests, the Hunkpatila seem to emerge at the end of the 18th c.-early 19th c. out of the "Okandanda" proper band of Lewis & Clark. Best to think of it as a process, covering a generation or so, rather than an event. I suggest that 1776 and 1785 may be key years in the process, however.  There was a Yellow Eagle named as a war-party leader during the Bozeman Trail War, perhaps a son of the chief of the 1850-70 period. According to John Colhoff he was the leading man of those Hunkpatila who in 1871 chose to remain in the hunting grounds and not settle at Red Cloud Agency. He relinquished his position to Crazy Horse. Although he seems invisible in the census record, Joseph Eagle Hawk (to Colhoff) recalled this Yellow Eagle as still part of the Hunkpatila band at the time the agency was removed to the Missouri, fall 1877. Hope this helps Kingsley |
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Post by ephriam on Jun 14, 2011 9:32:31 GMT -5
Kingsley briefly mentioned the "Sheo" band above.
Tabeau is the first source who gives any internal divisions of the Oglala, stating that the "Okondanas" included the "Okondanas" [proper] and the "Chihuat." He then adds the following important information:
"The Okondanas and the Chihauts, formerly connected and living with the Ris [Arikara], were agriculturists, but a war having come between the Ricaras and some of Sioux bands, these two bands sided each one with one of the opposing parties. Although they were reunited afterwards, there was no longer any question of cultivation" (Abel, 1939:104). I have often thought that this event may be the one referred to in the Oglala wintercount for 1767-69 period, "They divided themselves into two sides."
The published statistical summary from the Lewis and Clark expedition gives the same two divisions: "O-kan-dan-das" [proper] and "She-o". However, it is interesting to note that on the original field chart from the expedition, there is no mention of the She-o. This would suggest that the published version was influenced by Tabeau's manuscript, which we know that Lewis and Clark had a copy of.
Neither Lewis & Clark nor Tabeau gave a translation for "She-o". George Hyde thought it was shiyo, the Lakota word for grouse or prairie hen (Buechel and Manhart, 2002:287). And he suggested a connection to the later Brule band by this name (Hyde 1957:311).
In 1850, Culbertson does mention a Brule band he called The Pheasants (McDermott 1952:135). In 1880, Holy Bull provided a list of Brule bands which included the Shiyo Tanka or Large Grouse/Prairie Chicken band and the Shiyo Subula or Sharp-tail Grouse band (Dorsey, 1897:218).
Hyde's connection of the Shiyo with the later Brule bands, however, seems to be based solely on the similarity of their names, which I think is open to question. I can not find any other evidence that they may be related.
John Moore, in his excellent book, The Cheyenne Nation: A Social and Demographic History, provides an alternate hypothesis which I think bears consideration. He suggests that the early band "She-o" is from another Lakota word, shiyoto which refers to "the muscle in the front side of the upper part of a man's leg" (Buechel & Manhart, 2002:287). Moore makes a persuasive argument that "Lewis and Clark's Sheo is simply the Lakota version of the [Cheyenne] band name for Masikota, the Legs-Drawn-Up band." He suggests that this second band is a Cheyenne band who were extensively intermarried with the Oglala (Moore 1987:119-120; see also figure 4). I think this is a better reflection of the relationships between the peoples moving on to the Great Plains during this period, alternating between war and peace, ultimately establishing kinship relationships through marriage and by connecting together their spiritual elements.
ephriam
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Post by kingsleybray on Jun 15, 2011 4:23:47 GMT -5
We're at the risk of getting a long way away from Chief Smoke and his Family, but Ephriam has raised an important issue. The book by Moore on the Cheyennes is a landmark work, full of provocative interpretations and a Big Picture Awareness of the sorts of social change that the Plains Indians went through as they adapted to a changing world, both of new opportunities and new challenges. We need that sort of long perspective when sorting through the minutiae of band histories and genealogies. By a weird conjunction I was yesterday re-considering the early history and identity/ies of the Cheyenne Masikota band. After Grinnell and a few remarks in the Bent-Hyde letters, Moore's treatment is about all we have. I don't see quite eye-to-eye with some of his use of the colonial period documentary sources. What I think is clear, and I agree with Moore, is that the Masikota were the last band to cross the Missouri and join the emerging Cheyenne nation out near the Black Hills; and that before that the Masikota had a kind of joint-ethnic status as both Cheyenne and Lakota. My dating for the Masikota unequivocally joining the Cheyenne nation would be somewhat earlier than Moore's, however. He suggests it is somewhere between the Lewis & Clark expedition (1804-06) and the battle with the Kiowas and Comanches on Wolf Creek in 1838, at which Grinnell and Bent allude to Masikota involvement. However, by Moore's own statement elsewhere in THE CHEYENNE NATION (sorry copy not to hand with page ref's!) he mentions that chief High-Back Wolf I, killed 1833 and by evidence of Catlin's portrait probably born in the 1780s, was by birth a Masikota, the son of a chief in the Council of 44. That strongly suggests that the Masikota were a part of the Cheyenne tribe by the 1780s, twenty or so years before the Tabeau-L&C ref. to the Chihaut/Sheo band of Oglalas. Karl Schlesier, in his paper on the Sun Dance, also suggests a date in the 1780s for Masikota incorporation into the Cheyenne nation. I am working on a study of the history of the Lakota bands and the creation of the seven Teton tribes, and I don't want to preempt too much. Also as said my ideas on the Masikota are only now crystalising, but I would see them as living on the coteau des prairies of sw Minnesota and ne South Dakota through the mid-18th c. They may have been the band with a village on Big Stone Lake that was abandoned in about the 1720s (the fences and plots were still visible when the Miniconjou took them over about 1740-J.Waggoner papers). Like Moore I see them in a kind of symbiosis with certain Lakota groups, but I would propose mainly Miniconjou-proto-Sans Arc. As pressures grew in this region through the middle 1700s, climaxing with a raid by the Red Lake Chippewas about the early 1780s, the attractions of permanently joining the Cheyenne nation (horses, abundant buffalo etc.) became irresistible. Grinnell has a story about the founding of the Cheyenne tribal Council of 44 that dates it to the 1780s. I'm sure the chiefs' council existed in some form before that date, but may we see its formalisation as reflecting the incorporation of the last primary band to join the Cheyenne nation? On the Sheo I'm a little more reluctant than Ephriam to leave the old Hyde interpretation that they become the "Pheasants" band of Brules by 1850. But that's another story that doesn't belong in the Chief Smoke and his family thread! |
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Post by hreinn on Jun 15, 2011 17:10:44 GMT -5
Wendell Smoke ! Thank you very much for all your detailed posts. It is very interesting to see at last how these remarkable people were related. For about a century there have been published various books about these people, but no one have got the whole picture (not even the half). It is especially interesting to see how closely the Smoke people and the Bear people were related. It is good that the wounds have healed (at least a bit), so you are able to speak to a person belonging to the Bear people, that is Marcell Bull Bear. It takes great personalities on both sides to clear up a family feud like what happened between the two families, Bear family and Smoke family. I feel privileged for reading your posts about your family. Thanks again. Hreinn |
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Post by W. Smoke on Jun 15, 2011 21:48:17 GMT -5
hreinn,
When me & Marcell Bull bear see each other... we joke round with each other bout who is dominant one here!
I get along with Adolph & Marcell Bull bear more better than Oliver Red cloud & his family!
Because Rc family are kind of jealous & think they're higher than everyones!
That's why some Lakotas want the Rc family remove from the traditional head-leadership power!
The Rc family only got the traditional head-leadership from the 1868 treaty!
The U S Government appointed Red cloud as the head chief of the Oglala Sioux & Lakotas in 1868!
The real original chief of today suppose to be; Ed Afraid of His Horses!
Anyways bout the feud between the Bull bear & Smoke families; that feud is still going on today because when Little Wound School (the school in Kyle SD the home of the Kiyaksa people) plays Pine Ridge School (the school in Pine Ridge SD the home of the Bad Face people) in sport events/games & ect. against each other... its always a rivaly!
Contact: W. Smoke
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Post by kingsleybray on Jun 16, 2011 4:46:22 GMT -5
Thanks for the continuing information, Wendyll.
Can you help us with anything about the American Horse family, and how they may be related to the Smoke family?
In one of the messages above I noted the sequence of the family up to American Horse.
Generation A. Sitting Bear (or Brown Eagle Tail). Probably born about 1770s-80, so a contemporary of Smoke.
Generation B. Three Bears (or Sitting Bear no. 2). son of above. Born ca. 1804, according American Horse winter count.
Generation C. American Horse, son of above. Born 1839 or 1840.
Any clues as to how they are related to the tiwahes of Smoke, Standing Bull, or Man Afraid of His Horse?
Wopila mitakola!
Kingsley
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Post by jinlian on Jun 18, 2011 7:38:25 GMT -5
reesescup024, s! Yes... Big mouth, & Blue horse were twin bros. & sons of Smoke & his 3rd wife Burnt her woman; she was from the Sicangu! Yes... the twin bros. was born in the same year as their cousin Red cloud in 1822! Contact: W. Smoke Hi Wendell, everyone I'm catching up with the postings (due to personal problems, I've missed most of the last development of this thread) Thanks for the additional information about Big Mouth and Blue Horse. I was wondering, since Blue Horse and Big Mouth were twins, how and why was decided to give the Loafers's chieftainship to Big Mouth (in the Burbank interview, Blue Horse said that "Big Mouth was the elder", but probably this shouldn't be taken literally)? Also, I'd like to know more about the Loafers' futher splitting after Big Mouth's death, when part of them followed Blue Horse, and part chose Thigh as their leader. |
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Post by jinlian on Jun 18, 2011 8:13:05 GMT -5
Thanks for the continuing information, Wendyll. Can you help us with anything about the American Horse family, and how they may be related to the Smoke family? In one of the messages above I noted the sequence of the family up to American Horse. Generation A. Sitting Bear (or Brown Eagle Tail). Probably born about 1770s-80, so a contemporary of Smoke. Generation B. Three Bears (or Sitting Bear no. 2). son of above. Born ca. 1804, according American Horse winter count. Generation C. American Horse, son of above. Born 1839 or 1840. Any clues as to how they are related to the tiwahes of Smoke, Standing Bull, or Man Afraid of His Horse? Wopila mitakola! Kingsley Hello Kingsley, first, apologies for not having managed to get all the information about American Horse and his family together. Following your above question to Wendell, I'd like to point out the "infamous" half-sentence reported in Eli Ricker's notes: "Big Mouth & Blue Horse & Sitting Bear who was (illegible writing) they count from thes wives of his gr. gr. grandfather 5 generations" I have been speculating about the relationship between Chief Smoke's twins and Sitting Bear (supposing that this was Sitting Bear II, American Horse's father), assuming that probably there was some connections between their mothers. Wendell wrote that Blue Horse and Big Mouth's mother was a Sicangu , I wonder if American Horse' s mother (Sitting Bear/Three Bears' wife) was a Sicangu as well, considering American Horse close ties with the Brulé (Kinglsey reporting in another discussion that two of American Horse' wives [probably Sleep and Josie] were Iron Shell's daughters) Another American Horse question: in 1897, during an interview with Senator Pettigrew, American Horse said that ". My grandfather was a chief, but my father refused to be appointed chief, consequently the chieftainship went to another branch of the family" . Can be it read as the True Oglala band being absorbed and somehow losing its prominence? |
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Post by W. Smoke on Jun 18, 2011 15:49:51 GMT -5
I said this before; When couple of people that have the same name or a similar name, it Do Not mean that their related or anything... it just mean that they share the name sometime!
There were 3 American horses amongst the Great Plains indian tribes;
1st; American horse from the Teton oglala lakota & a son of Smoke!
2nd; American horse from the Oglala lakota sioux & the son of Sitting bear!
3rd; American horse from the southern-southern Cheyennes & other southern tribes!
They done couple hollywood movies in the 50s & 60s bout on the 3rd American horse & his tribe!
They are not related!
Contact: W. Smoke
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