Chief Smoke and his family

[kingsleybray]

Hreinn, your questions above:

Did Payabya exists within the Hunkpatila band before the split from the Hunkpatila ? Or was it a new name for the leaving group ?

Hunkpatila is first attested as an Oglala band in the Nicollet list of 1839. He gives the chief as Yellow Eagle. This may be the chief of the same name who died (after an accidental fall) in summer 1870, said to have been a brother of Old Man Afraid of His Horse. One newspaper account states that he was also a 'brother' of Red Cloud's - which if it isn't a mistake is a very interesting statement!

The Hunkpatila of 1839 corresponds to, or is a continuation of, the Oglala proper band noted by Lewis and Clark in 1804.

Payabya is first attested as a band name by F.V. Hayden in a table of Teton bands which by internal evidence dates from 1857-58. He lists the chief as Fast Whirlwind, the chief met by Francis Parkman in 1846. This suggests that Payabya and Hunkpatila were associated or 'nested' bands. According to Bull Bear family descendants interviewed by Scudder Mekeel in 1931, the Payabya band was founded by one of Bull Bear's brothers, Iron Hatchet - I suggest through extensive intermarriage with the Hunkpatila in the early 19th c. This could explain why Fast Whirlwind, certainly a Southern or Kiyaksa Oglala, is identified with the Payabya in 1857. Also I detect a 'policy' within the Man Afraid family of seeking to balance its alliances within the Oglala tribe, among both the Smoke People and Bear People divisions.

After 1870 the band name Payabya is identified with the part of the greater Hunkpatila band that settled at Red Cloud Agency, i.e. the Man Afraid segment of the old Hunkpatila. The Hunkpatila name seems to continue to attach to the non-agency segment, identified with the leadership of Little Hawk and Crazy Horse. In spring 1872 a majority of the band, some 70-odd lodges, was at Ft Laramie with Man Afraid, but evidently half the band left in May for the hunting grounds in the north. This I take to be the fundamental split in the old Hunkpatila, though incipient splits had taken place several times over war and peace issues during the Bozeman Trail War.

Hreinn question 2: Was the Oyuhpe band part of the Hunkpatila band, before Hunkpatila splitted into Smoke people vs. Bear people ? That is, was the Oyuhpe a group within the Hunkpatila before the split into the Smoke people vs. Bear people ?
Or was the Oyuhpe formed and given their name after the split of the Hunkpatila into the Smoke people vs. Bear people, because they were the neutral people in this conflict within the Hunkpatila ?

The first contemporary reference to the Oyuhpe is again Nicollet in 1839, when he gives the chief as White Earring. According to more traditions in Mekeel, the name existed before the split-off of the Hunkpapa from the Oglala. If this is true, it suggests that the Oyuhpe were a recognized part of the Oglala in the early 18th c.

My reading is that at the time of the Bull Bear feud, the Oyuhpe were an autonomous band distinct from the Hunpatila and the Kuhinyan or Kiyaksa bands. Their hunting range focussed further north, around the south edge of the Black Hills. They had extremely close ties to the northern Tetons, especially the Miniconjou. My reading of the fragmentary evidence is that the Oyuhpe became detached from the Oglala after the Winter When the People Divided (1759 in the No Ears group of winter counts), and may be the band noted among the Miniconjou by Truteau (1795) and Tabeau and Lewis & Clark (1804): the "Tar-co-eh-parh" band of Clark's tabulation, cf. Truteau's "Tacoropa" and Tabeau's "Tacohiropapais". The verb oyuhpa, to throw down, seems embedded in all these forms.

I think the Oyuhpe band reshifted back to the Oglala hoop gradually during the period 1810-30, retaining strong links to the north. They were not directly involved in the Smoke-Bull Bear feud that resulted in the killing of Bull Bear in 1841, but Smoke's offshoot band moved north immediately after the killing and formed a tightening alliance with the Oyuhpe and other groups. This created the Smoke People division of the Oglala tribe

Hope this helps

Kingsley

[W. Smoke]

The Oglalas originally name was the "Hunkpatilas" (The Camp at the End of the Circle), ca. 1800-1834;

Teton hunkpatilas was 1 of the biggest divisions of the Lakotas!

the other 1 was the Teton Sicangus!

When the Teton lakotas knock-off the Dakotas as the most powerful & dominant tribe in the Great sioux nation,

that when the Hunkpatilas rose to prominent & dominant among the Lakotas!

Smoke & Bull bear was the founders of the Oglala (Those Who Scatter Their Owns) name & 2 bands named Kiyaksa & Ite sica in 1834!

Then on the Hunkpatilas known as the Teton Oglalas, Kiyaksa, Ite sica & later on became known as the Oglala Sioux Tribe! 1834-present!!!

When Man Afraid I made as an headman in 1835 & 1851!

He named his band; the Hunkpatilas in 1869!

When Red cloud overthrew Man Afraid I as the head chief of the Oglalas in 1868!

After that Man Afraid I & his band also were called Payabya (Push asides)

So Man Afraid II used that Payabya name for his own band in 1869!

Contact: W. Smoke

[kingsleybray]

Thanks once again, W. Smoke, for your information.

Can you tell us any more about when Man Afraid I was made a headman in 1835? Was this a headman of the whole tribe? I am thinking of what you say about the split in the tribe in 1834, when Smoke and Bull Bear divided the tribe. So was Man Afraid I made a headman of the part of the tribe with Smoke? Is this the same as what you wrote about earlier, that Man Afraid I received an 'honoring shirt' from Smoke in the 1830s?

Excuse the pernickety questions - I am a deep admirer of Man Afraid I, and I want to make as full a picture as possible

Warm Regards

Kingsley

[hreinn]

Kingsley:

Thanks for yours detailed answers above !

Yellow Eagle who died 1870, did he fell off from a horse ?
Did he die because he broke his bone/vertebrate/spine on the backside of the throat (I don’t know the English word for it) ?
Was he considered young or old when he died ?
It would be interesting to know the connection/relation between Yellow Eagle and Smoke.

You refer to still another story of a sibling of Red Cloud.
There seems to be around many stories of brothers and sisters of Red Cloud.

Interesting information about the early Oyuhpe.

It was also interesting what you said about the winter “When the People Divided”.
Do you know anothing more about it ?
For example did they divide only during that particular winter or was it “permanent” ? Why did they divide ? What bands divided ? Who were the leaders ? Where did each group went ?


Hreinn

[hreinn]

The information from Wendell Smoke gives a new sight on why the Loafers band was a mixture of Oglála and Sičháŋğu (Brulé).

One of the reason was that the mother of Smoke’s twins Big Mouth and Blue Horse was the Sičháŋğu (Brulé) Burnt Her Woman.

Thus, the twins were a half Oglála and a half Sičháŋğu (Brulé).
The twins lived their youth years among their father's people - in the camp of the Oglála Smoke.
The twins lived most of their adult years among their mother‘s people within the Loafers band, where the twins were the leaders.
My guess is that most of the Sičháŋğus (Brulés) of the Loafers band were related to Burnt Her Woman.


Hreinn

[hreinn]

Wendell Smoke;

Was the Smoke's wife the Brulé Burnt Her Woman related to the Brulé Burnt Man ?
Burnt Man was a Brulé who in 1853 signed the amendment to the Fort Laramie Treaty from 1851 (Horse Creek Treaty 1851), along with the Oglála Smoke and Man Afraid of His Horse and others.

Any remarks on relatives of your great-great-great-grandmother Comes Out Slow Woman ?


Hreinn

[W. Smoke]

On Man afraid I; was made as an shirt-wearer & war-leader of the Wichiska & Toklala societies in 1835!

Man afraid I was made as an sub-main headman of the Oglalas by his father Smoke in 1851! (to prepare Man afraid for taking over the head leadership of the tribe when Smoke died)

Man afraid I took over as the original head chief of the Oglalas when his father Smoke died in 1864 but 4 years later Red cloud & the US Government overthrew Man afraid as the chief at the 1868 treaty!

In 1869 the re-maining people who were faithful followers to Man Afraid I appionted him as the chief of them & Man afraid named them as the Hunkpatilas!

Yellow eagle & Slow bull was not connection or related to Smoke!

After Smoke's death in 1864; almost everyones was claiming that they were related to Smoke but they actually was not!

"they only wanted the fame or something that all!"

That's why I only claim the people that have the names of Smoke's 7 sons!

Red cloud had no blood siblings!

After Smoke's death; the twins... Big mouth & Blue horse became the headmen of a small band called Bad faces/Loafers but later on Big mouth moved himself & Loafers with some Bad faces to the Scangus! (his mother Burnt her's people; the Sicangus)

Blue horse & the re-maining Bad faces with some Loafers who was in the Bad faces/Loafers band stayed with the Oglalas!

Blue horse died from natural causes of old age!

No, Burnt her woman & Burnt man was not related!

When couple of people that have the same name or a similar name, it Do Not mean that their related or anything... it just mean that they share the name sometime!

Contact: W. Smoke

[kingsleybray]

Hau, Wendyll!!

Once again, fantastic information for which I'm deeply grateful. Of course if you answer one question, a million new questions follow on - especially on American-tribes.com!

Do you know what warrior societies Smoke and Red CLoud belonged to?

I take it from an earlier message that Smoke had joined the Tokala as a youth/young man.

Hin Tamaheca has put a good summary of the Lakota men's societies on these boards. Briefly the main societies were the following:

WARRIOR SOCIETIES (called on to serve as akichita police)

Tokala, or Kit Fox
Chante Tinza, or Strong Heart
Kangi Yuha, or Crow Owner
Ihoka, or Badger Mouth
Sotka Yuha, Plain Lance Owners (a sotka is an undecorated staff, no feathers or decoration, hence 'plain')
Wichiska, White Pack-strap, also White Marked, White Sash, etc.

HEADMEN'S SOCIETIES

Nacha Okolakichiye, Chiefs' (or elders') society, nicknamed Big Bellies, Short Hairs, etc.)
Ska Yuha, White (Horse) Owners
Miwatani, or Mandan, the Lakota version of the Dog Soldier society

Later came the Omaha society.

Wendyll, do you know what societies men like Man Afraid I (and II), Red Cloud, Smoke, American Horse etc. - which societies they belonged to?

Any help on this would be great. We know a lot about the societies, but very little about the membership, i.e.who belonged to what society.

Thanks

Kingsley

[kingsleybray]

Hreinn

The winter 1759 is identified on the No Ears group of Oglala winter counts as Wichablechahan waniyetu, which literally translates as When the people divided during the winter. Some glosses state that this was the break-up of the original Seven Council Fires, and it was clearly a fundamental break in the Teton experience. I think it must be connected to the fact that after 1736 many more woodland D-Dakota - pressured by CHippewas, colonial tensions, diseases, etc. - were coming out onto the prairies of western Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas. Pressure was exerted on game and resources, and many Teton began to move further west.

According to the Oglala chapter in the Josephine Waggoner paper (Museum of the Fur Trade), Makula told Waggoner that 1759 marked the break-up specifically of the Miniconjou and the Oglala.

I think we are safe in assuming it marks the more general break between Southern Tetons (Brule and Oglala), and the Northern or Sanun (Saone) oyate groups (Miniconjou, Sans Arc, Hunkpapa etc.). My feeling is that after 1759 southern Teton groups increasingly shifted their WINTER operations (note ' . . . during the winter' in No Ears) into and west of the Missouri valley. This was NOT a discovery of the high plains region by these groups, I think they already spent significant parts of the warm seasons near the Missouri. After 1759 however they stopped regularly returning to locate their winter camps along upper Minnesota River. The Saone groups I think continued to winter near Big Stone Lake at least through the late 1780s. By 1790+, several Saone bands were extending their winter hunting operations west of the Missouri, initial hunts focussing along the line of the Cheyenne River.

More on Yellow Eagle later

Kingsley

[kingsleybray]

W. Smoke said above:

On Man afraid I; was made as an shirt-wearer & war-leader of the Wichiska & Toklala societies in 1835!


This is new information to me, but I wanted to let Wendyll and the boards know that Old Man Afraid of His Horse is credited (in Clark Wissler's 'Societies and Ceremonial Associations of the Oglala' paper) as being the founder of the Wichiska society. I have a statement in John Colhoff's letters to Joseph Balmer that this took place on modern Warbonnet Creek, nw corner of Nebraska. The creek got its name because the distinctive Wichiska warbonnets were first made there.

From some chronological hints I worked out to my satisfaction that the date of this founding was about 1836. Note how this fits almost perfectly with W. Smoke's date for the elevation of Man Afraid by the Wichiska and Tokala societies. There must be some connection - i.e. reality - behind this coincidence!

Kingsley

[W. Smoke]

On Toklala "Kit fox" society; was an headmen & warrior society... if you were elected in this society then you were automatically had role/responibities of an chief or you will be an chief/head chief 1 day & you were held in a high honor!

The Toklalas were like the top rank society of all!

Smoke were in the Toklalas & Nacha Okolakichiyes!

Man Afraid I were in the Wichiskas, Toklalas & Nacha Okolakichiyes!

Red Cloud "was not supposed to be a high rank head chief or anything like that & his uncle Smoke didn’t authorize that Red Cloud would be a prominent chief, just as a warrior and some type of a minor-leader"

Smoke II were in the Toklalas!

Man Afraid II were in the Wichiskas & Toklalas!

American Horse were in the Sotka Yuhas & Ska Yuhas!

Contact: W. Smoke

[kingsleybray]

Thanks again W. Smoke!

I meant to ask do you know what societies Bull Bear belonged to?

Kingsley

[hreinn]

Hello Wendell Smoke !

In a discussion with Henri regarding possible relatives of the Oglála Sitting Bull, there came up several questions I would like to ask you about.

Do you know who was the father of the female Bear Robe ?
Was it Bull Bear 1 (b.1805-1806, d.1841) or his brother One Eye (aka Le Borgne among the early French) or someone else ?

According to Hardorff;
Bull Bear 1 had one daughter. Her name was Bear Robe. She married the French man Henry Chatillion.
Bear Robe + Henry Chatillion had a daughter who married to Young Man Afraid of His Horse [1].

Hardorff gives no reference to his source(s).
But the source for Hardorff is perhaps in part Hyde's book Red Cloud's Folk [2].
Hyde does not either give a direct reference to his source(s). Only indirectly.

Can you confirm that the wife of Young Man Afraid of His Horse (the daughter of Bear Robe and Henry Chatillion) was named Hay Leg ? As written by HinTamaheca on the website Oyate Research Center [3].

Do you know the names of and/or family background and/or band background of the following persons:
1. Stone Knife's wife ?
2. Stone Knife's parents ?
3. Bull Bear's 1 wife ?
4. One Eye's (aka Le Borgne) wife ?

Did the brothers Bull Bear 1 and One Eye have the same mother ?


Hreinn


References:
1. Hardorff (2001) "The Death of Crazy Horse" page 39.
2. Hyde (1937, 1975) "Red Cloud's Folk, pages 59-60.
3. HinTameheca in oyate1.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ancestry&action=display&thread=1748

[W. Smoke]

Marcell Bull bear (an direct descendant of Bullbear & cousin to Adolph Bull bear); he only told me this...

on Bull bear;

born; 1790 & death; 1841

his father; chief Stone knife

Bull bear was only child of Stone knife!

Bull bear had 4 wives from some other Lakota sub-bands, O sage, Ponca, or Southern-Southern Cheyenne Tribes!

Bull bear had 6 children... only sons & no daughters;

Bull bear II, Little wound, Thunder bull, Spotted eagle, Little chief & Bull bear III!

Bull bear was the chief of the Kiyaksa band of the Oglalas from 1834 to 1841!

Contact: W. Smoke

[kingsleybray]

Thanks for sharing what you know on the family background of Bull Bear.

Do you have that sort of information on Man Afraid of His Horse, both No. 1 and No. 2?

In regards in particular to the wives of Man Afraid of His Horse No. 1.

I know that Young Man Afraid of His Horse was married to a fullblood Oglala woman, she was the mother of Amos Young Man Afraid of His Horse. She had several names including Stands By Her Word. Do we know anything about her family background? There seem to be some hints that she was a relative (niece?) of Red Cloud's.

Young Man Afraid of His Horse's second wife was a granddaughter of Bull Bear, being the child of Bull Bear's daughter Bear Robe Woman (died 1846) by her marriage to Henri Chatillon. She was the mother of Frank Young Man Afraid of His Horse.

Man Afraid of His Horse No. 1 - or 'Old' Man Afraid of His Horse - clearly had several wives. Do we know their names and their family backgrounds? Were they Oglala, or from other Lakota divisions, or from other tribes?

Any information would be deeply appreciated!