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Post by Mithlo on Aug 25, 2015 23:00:21 GMT -5
Whiteapache67.....I am Chiricahua Fort Sill Apache and I fill bad that someone ripped-you-off.....there's no excuse for a thief ....it just wrong! And your first try Moccasins are real nice....I think! MITHLO
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2015 7:28:40 GMT -5
Dago Te Mithlo ...
Thank you so much for your kind words , thats really very nice of you to say so about my moccasins, and your words mean alot to me. But you dont need to feel bad my friend , its not your fault i got scammed. Your kindness actually brought tears to my eyes , i am being sincere with you about that. Its sad to say Mithlo ' but i think some Apaches here think im a bad person , but that couldnt be further from the truth. Im actually a very sincere kind hearted quiet natured sort of person and would help anyone when i can. I actually have the greatest love for the Apache / Nde People all my life , but i guess i havent been very lucky meeting the nice ones. Its sad for me to say Mithlo but i think i have been given a bad name amongst the Apache People and that maybe why most dont reply. I really dont know ' or maybe its like the other Apache man said " im a stranger to them " I just wish they would reply. I really do want Apache Friends Mithlo ' its so nice to hear from a Chiricahua Man , the most Famous of the Apache Tribes. I feel very honoured by your message and hope we can become very good friends. Thank you so much again for your kind words. It really does mean alot to me. Take good care my Friend and hope you have a fantastic day.
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Post by dT on Aug 26, 2015 8:55:22 GMT -5
The interesting thing - to me - is that the Chiricahuas (and the White Mountain people) were very good at fixing their moccasins .... repairing them quickly. The Chiricahuas were capable of running 60-70 miles every day on foot, across trails in Arizona, New Mexico and Mexico. The wear-and-tear on their moccasins must have been tremendous. I am sure that very quickly their moccasins had all kinds of holes and tears in the skin. There are many cacti and thorns in that land.
Somehow the warriors became extremely good at fixing their moccasins "on the fly" - during the journey. Maybe they carried some sinew and a needle (a needle made from natural things). Maybe they even carried a small piece of animal skin, so they could do a quick repair on the moccasins. Somehow they did this - and still kept running long distances. Their ability to repair their moccasins and their clothes - it must have been very impressive, I think.
dT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2015 15:16:46 GMT -5
dT .. Thats very interesting your thoughts on the Apache mending theyre Moccasins , and i think your right about them carrying some repair items tucked down inside the folded leg of their moccasins as the leg on Apache Moccasins is folded down and then turned up ' and kinda forms like a pocket. I saw this Survivalist Documentary a few years back where he travels through the Arizona Desert along the Apache Trails and showing some of the little tricks the Apache used to survive there. He actually shows how the tip of the Agave and its fibres were used as a needle n thread to repair moccasins. It is very interesting for me to watch , and maybe yourself and some others will find it interesting too. He says in the programme he was shown somethings by a Chiricahua Man. He also replaces his own modern boots with a pair of white Apache Moccasins with the toe piece. I hope the link works and that you will find it interesting too
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2015 17:28:58 GMT -5
Apache Moccasins made for me by a White Mountain Apache ... Attachments:
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Post by cinemo on Aug 28, 2015 11:27:14 GMT -5
Preparation for long distances on foot and repairs of moccasins
Preparations for long distances to go consisted often of making an extra pair or pairs of moccasins.Thus, men or women were able to replace their moccasins. Additionally, needles of bone or metal and sinew or thread were used, to mend moccasins.
There was another possibility, to increase the durability of moccasins. This possibility was described in the book : Apaches – A History and Culture Portrait, by J. L. Haley
Excerpt : When the tough rawhide soles finally were through, the moccasins were not necessarily thrown away. After removing the old soles the uppers could be restored. The lower part of the uppers, where the sole had been attached, was buried in the ground after a rain and sprinkled occasionally to keep it damp. After about a half day they could be removed and reworked to fit the new sole. If the moccasins were of the high, thigh-lenght boot kind, the scuffed and ragged area around the sole might simply be cut away and the uppers pulled down, softened and reworked to fit a new sole. In this way one pair of moccasins would last a very long time, growing progressively shorter until worn down to ankle length. ( excerpt end )
cinemo
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Post by dT on Aug 28, 2015 14:11:49 GMT -5
Cinemo - thank you. Excellent comments. This confirms what I suspected ... the Apache "technology" for repairing moccasins was actually very clever.
WhiteApache - personally I don't think there's a problem if you design and make your own moccasins. Anyone can make moccasins - it is a resourceful thing to do (and much cheaper if you make your own!). Your skills look good. But as you have seen on this thread, there is a lot of sensitivity if you copy the specific designs used by the tribes. And there are a lot of good reasons why these concerns exist - although it is not obvious at first glance. So one possible solution for you is to create your own design that is functional, but you do not claim them to be "Apache" moccasins. Good luck!
Prayers and blessings to everyone here! dT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2015 14:29:48 GMT -5
Very interesting information Cinemo , I have heard that before about the trimming off of the stitch holes around the foot of the upper and just sewing on a new sole. it gradually shortens the length of the leg of the Moccasin but you dont have to keep using new leather to make a new boot. Very cleaver idea and less waste.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2015 14:57:59 GMT -5
Dt .. I do understand where your coming from and what your trying to explain , I understand fully what your saying and im honestly not trying to hurt or upset anyone! especially the Apache People. I love the Apache People and have been interested in them all my life and this is the reason I want to make my own Apache Moccasins. I love making moccasins , its something I enjoy doing but i have only ever made a pair for a friend and they were a gift to her. I got no payment for the leather or the beading I did which took me a few wks to do and i sent them to her without telling her they were on theyre way. I wanted to surprise her. She was over the moon with them and actually wore them to work one day lol. Her happiness was payment enough for me , i was glad to do it for her. Thats the only time ive ever made moccasins for anyone other than myself , and its my only interest' is to make moccasins. I have always been honest about who i am , I always say i am English ' not Apache and that No One has shown me how to make them. Im always honest with people about it , because there are people like myself who really love the Apache People and have a deep interest in them as a People ' and to be perfectly honest with you ' I wouldnt want a pair of Moccasins that werent made by an Apache Person. I would only want the genuine article , made by an Apache. I dont mean to hurt or upset anyone ' if i have done .. I Apologise Sincerely But thank you again Dt for trying to help. I really do appreciate it very much Thank You ! Here is a photo of the Plains Style High Tops i made and Beaded for my friend I hope you will like them. Attachments:
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Post by dT on Aug 31, 2015 23:14:50 GMT -5
whiteApache - I am not Apache. I am a humble visitor here, like you. Your skills seem like they are very good. Try making a pair of "daily" moccasins (old scraps of leather) and wearing them around outside. wear them as practical foot coverings, and you will learn a lot about how to improve the design ... by seeing how they hold together when they are scraped by rocks and bushes. The tribes of Cochise and Victorio were very practical people - strong and very resourceful!! Everything they made - was tested daily in the deserts and mountains. Nothing was imitation. Everything was strong, because it was made to be used!!
good luck, dT
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Post by jasper4 on Sept 8, 2015 15:31:28 GMT -5
Jasper4 - Greetings Brother. Yes, it takes a long time for people to understand. And a lot of people never understand. But be encouraged - some folks DO understand eventually. It just takes time. I will be going to the Sacred Places soon to pray. It is a personal trip. I like to go to those traditional lands when the thunderstorms come. That is a special time for me. I will say prayers for you, Brother!!! dT DT thank you for your prayers and FYI the VA calls it PTSD
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Post by dT on Sept 9, 2015 22:26:04 GMT -5
Jasper4 ... I will be at the Home of Cochise, and also the Place of the Rock People, this weekend. I will spend much time in prayer - for the Nde people, for Native and Indigenous People, and for my Friends on this forum - You, Mithlo, and others. Thank you to all people who make a positive contribution here.
dT
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Post by JustDrivingBy on Dec 29, 2015 14:15:36 GMT -5
i am a Cibecue Apache from the White Mountain Apache Tribe. and even if this is an old conversation, i am wondering why you want our moccasins when you yourself don't even trust us as a people? and for all honesty, to get a pair of moccasins, you don't try to make them yourself, or have someone try to make it for you over the internet. you go to a person who is respected, and who is known well. plus, who are you to call yourself a White Apache? if an Apache's blood does not flow through your veins than you are not an Apache. ' Truthfull .. You obviously haven't read my post properly , and taken in what I was saying or maybe you don't want to. As I said before .. None of the Apaches I contacted would even have the good manners to reply to any of my emails , so how do you deal with them when they don't even reply ? I mean , I sent emails to ' seven ' Apaches in one day , only 2 replied and that was about 3 or more months later. One lady asked for my name and address saying she knew someone who would help me .. I never heard from her again. The other young guy actually makes them and promised he would show me how they are made .. but again a year later and still nothing from him. He ignores my facebook msgs .. How do I deal with people that don't speak and don't reply ? The guy that runs the san carlos Cultural center told me he couldn't teach me as he cannot teach non tribal people how to make them , Yet I have seen something on the net the other day it was a newspaper article saying that hes teaching moccasin making and other crafts to anyone even non indian people. It looks like its an old article but he obviously looks to have been teaching non indian people back then , but later changed his mind. Again .. If you read what I said correctly ' you will see that I was ripped off by the woman at Mescalero $438 for a beaded pair of traditional moccasins. She claimed she sent them but I never received them in the post. She said she had a receipt from the post office to show she sent them , I never saw it. She claimed she had a copy signature to say someone signed for them but it wasn't ledgeable Then said she would refund me for them out of her own pocket .. I never saw a penny from her and she completely ignored every email I sent her afterwards , I tried phoning her .. never any answer only an answerphone probly so she wouldn't have to speak to me. And I now know that apache beaded moccasins are only about $340 -350 for a beaded pair. And you wonder why I find it difficult to trust apaches ? Really None of them seem to have a Bank Account to take payments either .. what do I do ? ... Another apache man tried to do the same to me .. so can you blame me. If you are as honest as you claim to be , can you seriously blame me .. and my name is just a name I chose for this website because of my interest in the apache people from when I was a child , but im now very disappointed by them because they don't even reply to me. Everyone should know and least have the good manners to reply to someone , it doesn't hurt does it. And you use the name Truthfully ''' but how do any of us on here know if you are truthfull or not ? Its just childish to say I cant use white apache as a name on a website for heavens sake. Im entitled to call myself whatever I like just the same as you. A lot of apaches these days use English surnames .. so your contradicting yourself there. You only have to look on facebook to see them all. I think you just sound miffed' because you don't want me to find out how theyre made. You don't want any non apaches to know how theyre made. You all use computers and modern technology , if we were to have your attitude of not sharing you would all still be living in the wickiup with no computers , electricity .. or facebook. And its obvious you've gotten one of your little friends to comment below too. Very childish im afraid. Why is it such a big secret anyway as to how they are made ? ... Does it really matter ?
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Post by JustDrivingBy on Dec 29, 2015 14:29:19 GMT -5
Tried to quote a post - didn't quite make it happen.
I was searching for moccasin patterns when I came across this thread.After reading through it I had to respond. First, I must note I am not apache or native american.
"whiteapache67", my dear sir or madame, it is clear from your posts that there may be reasons why people are not responding to you. You may have been ripped off by someone(frankly, how can you be sure of who it really was? You never actually met them.) but that does not make for a generalization of any group. You have posted many things that are inappropriate, if not downright insulting, to any group. You also show an ignorance that I would suggest needs some serious self reflection. I generally am not the politically correct type, but your interest and assumptions border on a patronizing self important schoolboy. If not for your admission of age I might have believed you were too young to know better.
Otherwise - to the rest. Thanks for the links. I think I will attempt Ghormley's pattern. I had heard a rumor that the long moccasins would sometimes be used to hold important items in the folded over tops. Anyone else ever hear of that? If so, what type of things were kept there?
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Post by dT on Dec 29, 2015 22:32:58 GMT -5
Let me suggest a very practical idea. Choose any pattern that you think works for you. Make the moccasins. And THEN GO AND RUN IN THEM !!! If you want to honor the spirit of people like Cochise and Geronimo ... run in the moccasins. Try to run across country, over hills, down valleys, through bushes.
RUN CROSS COUNTRY - IN YOUR MOCCASINS !!!!
You will discover very quickly how well your moccasins are performing. Do they fit well, or do they rub your feet in many places? Do they withstand the tearing of branches and thorns? Do the stitches hold together, or do they fall apart quickly?
These practical things were much more important to Geronimo, than all of the talk about styles or patterns. If you are fortunate, and you visit the land of the Cochise Stronghold in Arizona ... go and RUN there!! The ground is rough, there are many thorn bushes and cacti to tear your skin, and many many small valleys and hills. You will honor the spirit of the Apaches ... if you run across the land. And then you will really know moccasins!!
dT
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