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Post by dT on May 20, 2014 14:57:28 GMT -5
Well ... HAHAHA!!! ... the last laugh is on me. I took some photo's of myself doing knife moves at the Cochise Stronghold. I should post them here sometime. This was a salute to Geronimo and Cochise. But anyway, after I showed the pix - a lady said to me ... "you know you should really be wearing regalia!". She is RIGHT of course. So I told her I would try to make some basic moccs (moccasins) and a jacket from leather and deerskin. I should be able to so it, because I have a little bit of experience working with leather. But I will have to find some cutting patterns for moccasins. Anyway ... if I do something it will be really, really basic. There are folks in the Native community who are trmendously skilled with this stuff .. but I am the opposite. I hate to even think what my first pair of moccs is going to look like!!! Hahahahaha!!
dT
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Post by auntraven on May 21, 2014 16:05:50 GMT -5
I stumbled on this site by accident. I am a Texan living in the UK. I used to live in Aztec, NM, and also stayed one year in Sedona AZ 40 years ago (that was before it got too weird). I was a field naturalist studying reptiles; and still have a pair of the knee-high Navajo / Apache style moccasins which i bought from some company with a name like Kaibab. I think it is no longer in business but was run by native americans who made fine moccasins on the old style-- expensive, but worth it. Mine are rust red rough leather leggins which button up the side of the leg, and you had to place the concho-buttons yourself to fit your leg. The sole is made of very thick, stiff white horse-hide or bull hide, I forget which. The sole comes up the side of the foot, and is sewed from the inside so that no thorns etc can break topside stitching. You had to use a kind of button hook made of a rawhide loop on a wooden toggle to put the buttons through the button holes-- it took a couple minutes per boot to get them on right. In winter you fitted dry grass. or a wool pad innersole to keep your feet warm(ish). The design of this boot was developed to protect the shins from scratches from desert brush and thorns which will shred your legs or trousers. The stiff white sole is thick but once it wears to your foot, you can walk across broken ground and up rough slabs of rock and grip with your toes and not slip. This footwear is designed for desert conditions. In the UK, the sole will slip dangerously on wet ground or pavement (I learned this the hard way when I first moved here). This footgear is totally impractical and even dangerous in a wet climate; and gluing a crepe or rubber sole on the bottom of this kind of boot would ruin the whole look.
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Post by dT on May 21, 2014 16:33:55 GMT -5
auntraven ... is there any way you could show us a couple of pics of these moccasins? it's a hassle posting pics to this site now - but send them to my email. I would like to take a careful look at what you are saying about how the sole is stitched to the sides of the moccasins. that sounds like a very clever idea. thanks for posting.
dT
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Post by auntraven on May 22, 2014 9:15:22 GMT -5
dT: Sorry, I am an old person who doesn't have a camera or even a smartphone. (I'm happy with my dumb-phone.) However, I have found an honest man who will make your moccasins, (apparently he once worked for the Kaibab company, which is a high recommendation to me) and moreover will make them as tall as you want. See this link: borderbeat.net/culture/1706-amber-gallegos . (or you could just google kaibab moccasins, and see if older pair show up on e-bay, or whether there are old stock sold by other trading posts. Be careful to compare as many sites as you can) In the photo of him, look at the two pair of 4-button navajo boots on the top shelf behind him -- they are the classic style & height, though you can get them taller if you like. (My own Kaibabs were once called the Ute boot a fine classic tall design). Since this man is an expert, you can ask him about specifically Apache details--you can send him pictures or drawings for what you have in mind. Expect to pay a lot for these-- but remember, I have had mine for 40 years and still wear them around the house especially for Thanksgiving dinner :-) . Ask him hints for minor repairs; he will be able to re-sole them for you in the future, though he is an older guy and I would diplomatically ask (but only after you have corresponded for a bit) if he has an apprentice or someone else he could recommend that could do the job if he were unable. Do be certain if you contact him, that you must decide beforehand whether you want to wear the boots inside or outside your jeans to take the measurement he needs. I am guessing that you will send /fax him an outline of both feet as you are standing up (weight-bearing), and the circumference of your leg at tow or three heights. If he sends you the buttons along with the mocs to set yourself, DON"T out of curiosity push one of the thumbtacks into a loose button to see how it works -- you won't get the tack out, and will be short a button which will cause you a lot of trouble and postage to replace! Also, get someone to mark the button placings while you stand on a table or chair standing upright wearing the type trowsers ( or socks) you intend to wear with these boots. If you try to do it yourself, you will not get the placement straight because you are not standing upright. Also know that when you get this type of moccasin, it will at first be very tight but will stretch to mould to your foot. My best hint for first wearing them would be to jog around a well-mowed lawn on a dry day-- a golf green would be ideal, though you may enrage the golfers and the greens-keepers. :-) Good luck.
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Post by dT on May 22, 2014 12:05:23 GMT -5
auntraven ... you have done me a great service! Indeed, to find an honest man who will make a good pair of moccasins is a great help to me. Yes, I will take your advice and think about how I will wear them. But certainly I will be in touch with this man, and I will pay him a fair price. Once again, BIG THANKS!!!
dT
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2014 12:21:00 GMT -5
I dont have any problem with people making their own moccasins, and people are free to SELL them as well if they want. There is no problem with that - so long as everyone is honest about what they are doing. I'm not giving anyone a hard time, if they are simply truthful and tell people honestly what they are doing. I'm not sure, though, that there is any value in "outsiders" copying the Chiricahua design for moccasins with the toes turned up. That was a special design that the Chiricahuas used themselves, and it was related to their own decorations and customs. It serves no practical purpose (as far as I know). I think that is an aspect of their Nde culture that we should respect and leave alone for them. Therefore, I would never do a design like that myself. I would encourage people doing crafts to avoid copying Chiricahua designs just for the sake of copying. Be CREATIVE - do your own designs!! :-) On a PRACTICAL note ... I was just up in the Chiricahua mountains last weekend. I was walking off-trail, going to some places that most visitors do not see. I can tell you that bushwhacking through all that heavy undergrowth is hard work, and it's very hot work (even in early May). The manzanita bushes are very dense - between the manzanitas and other plants it really tears up your clothes and footwear. It helps have some very solid boots or moccasins .... I dont blame the Apaches for making their moccasins as strong as possible. It is VERY EASY to get your feet and legs torn up by the thorns and branches!!! Been there ... done that :-) !!!! Pete (dT) Dt .. I agree fully with what you said about anyone should be allowed to make their own moccasins and sell them if they choose to do so as long as theyre honest about who they are and say that the moccasins are not apache made , but a replica of traditional apache moccasins. I agree with you on that point , and I also agree that some people will want the ' real ' thing , apache made and true to the traditional apache way of making them. But I also think that people shouldn't be getting offended by others ' non apache who like myself have had a lifelong interest in the people and its from there that I want to learn to make my own apache moccasins. I would love ' to learn the correct traditional method of making them , but as the apaches don't want to share with outsiders well then they cant really go around being upset with others wanting and trying to make them as close as they can to the real thing. The way I see it ' You cant complain if you don't want to help in the first place .. On the Toe guard .. I did ask Mr Stevens at the San Carlos cultural center what was the reason or purpose of the circular toe piece , was it a toe guard or does it have a religious significance ? He said '' its just that ..a toe guard. When I spoke to him over the phone I was asking about the Chiricahua style Moccasins .. he told me Chiricahua doesn't really exist anymore. He probly means because they all wear the same style now. But to be honest , I have seen quite a few old west pics of apaches and the toe guard as its called isn't very big at all .. so I cant really see that it would be much use as a guard for the toes. If you look at old west Pics of Naiche with his wife , his moccasins have the smallest toe piece I have ever seen on apache moccasins. Also there is another pic of Chato and he also is wearing moccasins with a very small , tiny toe piece. So I really don't know , but I cant see how they would pretect the toes with them being so tiny almost coin size. They just seem to vary from each wearer / maker. I cant help but wonder if it had anything to do with the symbol of the sun , as in the Sunrise Ceremony the girl is seated on the ground and rocks from side to side with her hands raised imitating the sun rising and greeting the sun. Or maybe the toe piece is just to identify the wearer as apache. Like I said I really don't know .. these are just my own thoughts on the subject. I have also seen old pics of apaches wearing moccasins with no circle at the toes , but have a slight point at , or next to the big toe area. I read somewhere that these moccasins are eastern chiricahua , but any apaches ive asked about it don't seem to know the history of this style and how they came about. Again , maybe it was just the wearer , makers own preference to make them , wear them this way. I really don't know. I love making moccasins , but so far have only made a beaded pair for a friend as a gift. Its just something I enjoy doing. I have no intention in any way of claiming them to be traditional apache moccasins or apache made. I am a sincere person and would want the person to know what they would be getting .. which is not the real thing but as close a look alike to them as I can do. Like I have said before and have always said I just want to learn to make them , becase of my interest in the apache people and because I want to be able to make my own apache moccasins. Its not that im intending to go into business making them, and I don't know as I want the hassle or the worry of them not fitting properly when the buyer receives them and wanting to return them. And your right about them being a good protection for the legs , as they are in effect 3 layers of leather .. you have the main body of the leg reaching to about the knee .. then folded down and then brought back up again to the top at knee height .. forming 3 layers of leather around the leg. They are and could be pulled up thigh hi to protect the legs from cold , brush and thorns
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Post by dT on May 28, 2014 12:25:54 GMT -5
Whiteapache ... thanks for your thoughts. I still dont know the real meaning of the shape of the toes on the moccs for the Chiricahua's. Perhaps someone at the Mescalero reservation knows, but maybe the real reason has been forgotten.
If you look at the comments from one of the readers here, who gave the link to the man in AZ who makes good mocassins, there is an art with the stitching. I thought that probably there were some important things that are not obvious about how to make these moccs. That is one example. The stitching has to be done right, so the stitches wont be torn by thorns in the bushes. I am still trying to understand the correct way of doing - I will probably buy a "good" pair of moccs and take a look at them :-) I am definitely NOT saying that other designs are bad ... there is probably not much difference unless you are a person who wears these shoes in rough country all the time.
dT
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Post by nightsinger on Jun 2, 2014 2:50:06 GMT -5
I have always heard that the curled up toe served the important purpose of extending the hard protective rawhide soles up over the wearer's toes, keeping cactus from poking through the much lighter deerskin uppers. I've always heard them ca lled "cactus kickers." That's the case with my thigh-high mocs which were made for me by a friend.
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Post by dT on Jun 6, 2014 16:15:27 GMT -5
nightsinger - you might be correct. it's a very practical explanation, and the old Chiricahuas were a very practical people. They didnt waste much energy on things that were useless or didnt work. Maybe it came about because of how they repaired their moccs. All warriors had to fix clothing and moccasins while on the trail. Like you say - its very easy to knock holes in the toes of those shoes because of the sharp thorns and rocks out there. So if they had no more leather to repair the moccs, they might have curled up the sole of the shoe at the toe - and stitched it like that. And then it caught on and became a custom for them. Could be!
dT
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Post by nightsinger on Jun 7, 2014 19:34:16 GMT -5
Found this amidst my plunder. I have no idea if the author is even still alive, let alone if he has any copies of his excellent little book. It wouldn't hurt to try though, "Craft Manual of North American Indian Footwear" by George M. White, January 1969. Copies WERE available through George M. White, P.O. Box 365 Ronan, MT 59864. (as I said, No Guarantees. Pp. 42-46 Shows pattern and pretty clear How-to instructions. For mine, we used white brain-tanned deerskin for the uppers and high tops and rawhide for the soles and cactus kickers.
Hell, I just checked and they're evidently available on Amazon, Allibris, Ebay, Yukon Books etc, not cheap but I've used it over the years for many different tribes' moccasin patterns.
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Post by helper on Jun 8, 2014 21:07:24 GMT -5
used.addall.com/there are many copies of the above book for lots of prices from high to low - hope that helps
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Post by kayitah on Jun 9, 2014 18:30:27 GMT -5
Found this amidst my plunder. I have no idea if the author is even still alive, let alone if he has any copies of his excellent little book. It wouldn't hurt to try though, "Craft Manual of North American Indian Footwear" by George M. White, January 1969. Copies WERE available through George M. White, P.O. Box 365 Ronan, MT 59864. (as I said, No Guarantees. Pp. 42-46 Shows pattern and pretty clear How-to instructions. For mine, we used white brain-tanned deerskin for the uppers and high tops and rawhide for the soles and cactus kickers. Hell, I just checked and they're evidently available on Amazon, Allibris, Ebay, Yukon Books etc, not cheap but I've used it over the years for many different tribes' moccasin patterns. I bought the book just recently and got it last Friday. I can make a scan of the relevant pages if you like.
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Post by dT on Jun 9, 2014 22:48:25 GMT -5
definitely would like that Kayitah. I will send a message with my mailing address :-) and once again THANKS for the help with the photo.
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Post by Istick Bi Tu on Jan 15, 2015 12:38:49 GMT -5
Me and my girlfriend make moccasins, beaded and plain. I don't do the traditional cowhide, I mainly use latigo.
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Post by dT on Jan 15, 2015 23:54:37 GMT -5
Istick .. I am way behind - I have been busy. I need to start making moccasins. I'm sure it will take a while before they look really nice.
dT
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