RomsD
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Post by RomsD on Nov 13, 2012 17:12:40 GMT -5
Anyway - I'm deeply impressed with all the expertice you folks in here posess :-))))))
Thank you so much for sharing with me, Naiches!
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Post by naiches2 on Nov 14, 2012 3:14:02 GMT -5
Anyway - I'm deeply impressed with all the expertice you folks in here posess :-)))))) Thank you so much for sharing with, Naiches! You are welcome  And I'm deeply impressed with Medieval Norwegian History (Heimskringla etc.) |
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RomsD
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Post by RomsD on Nov 14, 2012 8:33:17 GMT -5
And we can conclude you are a professional historian, Naiches; not many other americans have ever read Snorre Sturlason I suppose :-)
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Post by naiches2 on Nov 14, 2012 13:57:53 GMT -5
And we can conclude you are a professional historian, Naiches; not many other americans have ever read Snorre Sturlason I suppose :-) I'm not a professional historian. I'm a professional reader ;D My opinion - Sagas is the GREAT literature with a cunning personage and fascinating and readable story. I love this books! (in translation, of course) btw: I agree that not many other americans have ever read Snorri Sturluson, but I live in Russia  , sorry |
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Post by cinemo on Nov 16, 2012 12:15:34 GMT -5
Ishton and Ish - keh
I think, there is a mistake. Ishton was the favorite cousin of Geronimo and wife of Juh.
Ishton was killed by mexicans in very late 1882 or in very early 1883.
The Fort Sill records identify a woman named Ish - keh who died at Fort Sill in 1897as
the same person as Ishton, but the identification is certainly a error.
I found this in a book by Angie Debo, Geronimo: The Man, His Time, His Place
Please see pages 163 - 166
Greetings from Germany - cinemo
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RomsD
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Post by RomsD on Nov 16, 2012 18:31:04 GMT -5
Brilliant Cinemo, thank you!
Seems like i'll have to read one more book :-)
RomsD
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Post by Mithlo on Nov 16, 2012 23:59:06 GMT -5
Yes! There is a "BIG" mistake!.......The information on the headstone relates to Ish-ton/Ish-keh. wife of Juh, mother of Daklugie, who was indeed killed in an attack by Mexican's in the early 1880's. Ish-ton/Ish-keh was a Bedonkohe!..........The woman buried in that grave....Ish-keh......was a Chiricahua with only one known relative, Lambert Istone's wife Beulah Istone (both Carlisle students). They entered Carlisle together on April 30 1887, Beulah died there in 1889 and Lambert finished school there in late 1895, but....instead of coming to our people here at Fort Sill he instead joined the White Mountian people at Fort Apache Arizona (Where he had a relative living). ISH-KEH........the CHIRICAHUA........buried in "THAT" grave died December 11th 1897! Ishton and Ish - keh I think, there is a mistake. Ishton was the favorite cousin of Geronimo and wife of Juh. Ishton was killed by mexicans in very late 1882 or in very early 1883. The Fort Sill records identify a woman named Ish - keh who died at Fort Sill in 1897as the same person as Ishton, but the identification is certainly a error. I found this in a book by Angie Debo, Geronimo: The Man, His Time, His Place Please see pages 163 - 166 Greetings from Germany - cinemo |
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RomsD
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Post by RomsD on Nov 28, 2012 6:49:06 GMT -5
Yes! According to Dan Thrapp Ishton (Juh's wife) died in a Mexican attack on their Rancheria at Temosachic, Chihuahua late january 1883 (D. Thrapp 'The Conquest of Apacheria' p. 265)
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chi1
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Post by chi1 on Mar 9, 2015 13:55:24 GMT -5
Here are Chief Chuhuahua and another Chino as old men.  Exept. from A.Radbourne "Mickey Free": p.149-150 Radbourne cited Allen Smith, Jr. about Chiricahua Apache dance in "An Apache War Dance": '"big medicine man named Chino" who signaled the changes of tempo for drummers...'; and p.251: 'it is unclear whether the shaman, Chino, was the Chiricahua whose Apache name was as Tlol-glish and who, in late 1880s, was living among the Eastern White Mountain people as leader of the "L" tag band; or if he was the Warm Spring Apache of Loco's band listed at that time among prisoners at Mount Vernon. The Spanish sobriquet means "Curly"(!)' IMHO: At that time in that place could be a lot of people named "Curly"  This picture is also taken at Fort Sill. Chino was a common name used. This Chino is the Chiricahua. There is also a Western Apache by this name. They are two different people. The man on the right seems to be nana, there are other pictures of Chihuahua with Nana I'll see if I can find one. |
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chi1
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Post by chi1 on Mar 9, 2015 14:06:02 GMT -5
So is this another Chino than the man below or is one of them misidentified??  You can find federick Chino at Mezcalero Res. direct grandson of Chiho |
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Post by gregor on Nov 23, 2015 9:50:28 GMT -5
This is what I have compiled on Juh:
Juh
(c. 1825 - November 1883),
aka Ho, Whoa, Who and Long Neck
Juh is one of the lesser known Apache leaders. Little is known about Juh's early life. By the 1870s, he had become the principal chief of the Nednhi Apache, a small group of Chiricahuas who refused to be relocated to the San Carlos Reservation.
Some sources say Juh is a corrupt Spanish rendering of an Apache name, pronounced Ho. Juh's son said that his father's [real?] name meant "He-sees-ahead". A name that denominates Juh’s several Powers, including the gift of prophecy. But his strongest Power was the ability to handle his men. Others said “he was called Ho because he stuttered .... [He] could hardly talk at all when he became excited”. Juh's stuttering promoted Geronimo's rise to prominence. Because of this severe stutter, Juh often found it difficult, once he became chief, to address his warriors. He came to rely on Geronimo as his spokesman.
Though a Chiricahua chief, he was neither one of Cochise's Chokonen nor one of Mangas's Chihenne. His people were Nednhi (Netdahe, Nednai), who ranged through the Sierra Madre in Mexico.
During his adolescence, Geronimo's Bedonkohe were visited by Nednhi from far to the south in the Sierra Madre of Mexico. One of the Bedonkohe was related to one of the Nednhi. Thus Geronimo met Juh, who would become his chief and constant ally in war. And later his brother-in-law. Himself a teenager, Juh befriended Geronimo and must have got to know Ishton or lsh-keh, Geronimo's sister (or cousin). Later Juh returned to the Gila River to take lshton as his bride.
About 1852/3 a year after the massacre of Apaches at Janos (Mexico), a three-winged army under Mangas Coloradas, Cochise, and Juh - one of the largest Chiricahua forces ever assembled - came together at the Mexican border. The warriors started south on foot, eschewing horses for reasons of stealth. They traveled forty to forty-five miles a day, with Geronimo as guide, to revenge the massacre.
When lshton had trouble during childbirth (about 1870), Geronimo prayed to Ussen (Creator of Life, God) to spare his sister and her child's life. Juh and lshton's son, Daklugie, would live through the last Apache war as a teenager. Later he became Geronimo's confidant in captivity. Daklugie had at least two older brothers Daklegon and Delsezhenne. In very late 1882 or in very early 1883 Ishton was killed by Mexicans.
About the 1870s only few Apache leaders were known to white Americans, e.g. Cochise or Mangas Coloradas. The very existence of a younger generation of Chiricahua leaders - men such as Juh, Victorio and Geronimo, whose antipathy for the White Eyes was even fresher and more vital than Cochise's - was beyond the American "Radar". In 1871, Juh was in his forties, and his identity was unknown to white Americans. When Cochise died in 1874 his son Taza was too young to Iead the Chiricahua, and Juh took the responsibility. He was dominant, capable, and daring. Men who knew him remembered him seven decades later as over six feet in height and stockily built with a weight about 225 pounds. It is not known if he was elected, but the Chiricahua accepted his leadership until they were forced to go to San Carlos. When John P. Clum became agent at San Carlos after being nominated by the Dutch Reformed Church in August 1874, Juh took many of the warriors and went to his old haunts in Sonora. Taza and Naiche, the sons of Cochise, went to San Carlos with their people.
In the early 1880s Juh took his people and moved deeper into the Sierra Madre to the headwaters of the Bavispe. After several months of peace, he raided Sonora again. But Juh's people were constantly attacked by Mexicans. They lost women, children, and much of their belongings. Arguments between Juh and the other Ieaders resulted in a band splitting and going in different directions. At last Juh led his band to San Carlos, where he joined Geronimo’s band.
By 1882 Cochise and Mangas Coloradas were dead; and so was Victorio, killed by Mexican Militia and Tarahumaras. Juh, the Nednhi chieftain, became the dominant war Ieader. For the next year and a half, Juh and Geronimo operated out of Juh's stronghold deep in the Sierra Madre – a period most obscure in the lives of both.
But in September [1881], Geronimo and Juh fled San Carlos again to their hideaways in the impenetrable Sierra Madre of Mexico. In this first exodus, some four hundred vacated - the Nednhis under Juh, the Chokonen under Naiche, and part of the Bedonkohes under Geronimo .The next spring [April 1882], convinced that Loco and his people would perish if they remained at San Carlos, Geronimo and Juh forced Loco and some three hundred Chiricahuas to leave. Also attacked across the border by Mexican soldiers, they found refuge in the mountains of Mexico. Juh was the dominant leader because of his experience, knowledge of the country, and his personal relationship with Mexican officials.
Juh died in 1883 in Mexico. His son Asa Daklugie claimed that he suffered a sudden heart attack. Juh was said to have fallen from his horse into the Casas Grandes River in Mexico. Others have claimed that perhaps he was intoxicated. Either way, he subsequently drowned.
What else do we know? Is there a photograph of Juh? What is wrong?
CU gregor
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Post by jasper4 on Nov 23, 2015 14:26:58 GMT -5
Dzilthdaklizhéndé - "Blue Mountain People" or in spanish Janeros
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Post by jasper4 on Nov 24, 2015 14:28:49 GMT -5
When Cochise died in 1874 his son Taza was too young to Iead the Chiricahua, and Juh took the responsibility. Taza was the oldest son of hardwood and had been mentored to lead while Naiche was the young one. Nednhi or enemy people were more kin to eastern bands and Juh was kin to Mahco the old Nantan who was granfather to he who yawns.
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Post by coeurrouge on Nov 24, 2015 16:44:43 GMT -5
During the escape on may 1885, Juh's son staid with Mangas not with Geronimo their uncle or with the Nedni group of Naculbaye. Why ?
Daklugie said that Geronimo let him with Mangas (much peaceful than Geronimo) because the saw that he would be the last of Juh' sons and if he staid with Geronimo, he would be killed.
But What are the relative link between Daklugie and Mangas. Mangas was he a brother in law of Juh, a nephew, a cousin ?
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Post by jasper4 on Dec 7, 2015 12:28:25 GMT -5
During the escape on may 1885, Juh's son staid with Mangas not with Geronimo their uncle or with the Nedni group of Naculbaye. Why ? Daklugie said that Geronimo let him with Mangas (much peaceful than Geronimo) because the saw that he would be the last of Juh' sons and if he staid with Geronimo, he would be killed. But What are the relative link between Daklugie and Mangas. Mangas was he a brother in law of Juh, a nephew, a cousin ? Cousin maybe yet the facts are clear that Mangus aka Carl went out with Naiche and Geronimo in the last 2 breakouts from what I remember. |
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, sorry
