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Post by dT on Aug 23, 2012 12:24:34 GMT -5
Jasper ... thank you again. Yes you are right - Biduyah and all his men fought to their deaths with great courage and without complaint. A very great credit to them. They set a very high example for the world world.
I thought about the battle at Tres Castillos some more -and realized this series of events must have troubled Lozen very deeply. She may have had good reasons to be absent from her brother when the battle was taking place, Yet later, the message would have reached her that the enemy caught Biduyah by surprise - a situation where her gifts might have saved lives. Perhaps her spirit was deeply troubled for a long time by these thoughts. A sad thought.
dT
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 23, 2012 14:28:13 GMT -5
Here are some things that remain puzzling about Victorio's final battle at Tres Castillos. At least - these things are problems for my understanding. :-) 1. Why was Victorio so far south into Mexico at this stage. He was travelling on territory that was less familiar (perhaps), and did not offer really good protection for the woman and children. So why was he in this part of the land, instead of further north where the Apache strongholds were located? 2. Why was Victorio surprised by the Mexican forces who were trailing him? Did he fail to post scouts on the rear of his group who would see an enemy approaching from behind? Or did he post those scouts, but the Mexican forces were clever and found a way to distract or kill them silently? 3. Why did Lozen choose not to travel with her brother on this journey? 4. How many horses did Victorio have when he fought this final battle? The availability of horses would have given him more choices for defense, because he could have split his warriors into different attacking parties. But with few horses, his men would have been confined to the hills and piles of rock. Pehaps the Chihennes had already killed a lot of their horses, because they were low on food. 5. If some women, children and old men could escape in the night, before the final fight when all of the warriors were killed, then why didn't Victorio attempt to use his warriors to break out at night through the Mexican lines? Perhaps we will never know the answers to most of these questions. But there may be some answers still within the Chiricahua community today, and some other answers that could be researched by people who look into old information from Mexico. dT My answers as remember what I read : 1. Some Mescaleros were with him and knew the east of Chihuahua more than the Chiricahuas. the real question it was why this plains and not the Sierra Madre ? I think it was psychological. Biduyah was very dispressed, I think. His older son has been killed in june, his others sons and sons in law were killed too sooner or later than Washington. He definitively understoodd that two countrys fought his band and that his band would never come back at Ojo Caliente in Peace (they could live less than few days quiet at this place on the 1880's summer). Some of his family, including his younger son Istee, were at San Carlos but he could not join them. They were lack of food, horses and most important, ammunition. I think Biduyah was in a sort of perdition and maybe thought that Mexicans and Americans would look for him in the Sierra Madre. And since 1876, there was no more Apache Stronghold safe for Chiricahuas, in the North of the frontier. 2.Biduyah was no attacked by the rear but in front of him ! Kastziden (Nana) was guarding the rear. I do not know if Mangas was with Biduyah in front of the band or with Kastziden. Two troups of Mexican attacked. Fisrt the one of Terrazas, in the front of Biduyah surprised him and the one of Luis Garcia (I'm not sure of the commander) who followed the band from several days occupying the eyes of the Chiricahuas behind them. The easy victory of Terrazas happened because the Chiricahuas were surprised of plain with very few ammunitions. In a same fight on 1882, when Garcia surprised and fought Goyakla and his warriors protecting women and children, they didn't win and the mexicans lost 23 deads and around 40 wounded. At Tres Castillos they lost 3 deads and a dozen of wounded. 3.of Lozen no more than Jasper. 5. I think the Mexicans concentrated their forces against the 60 warriors around Biduyah and then allowed some women, children and warriors (mostly belonging at the Chiricahua rear guard), who were not surrounded by Mexicans, to escaped. But on a band of 150 to 200 peoples only 30-40 (15-20%) escaped of the massacre or of the slavery. |
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Post by dT on Aug 24, 2012 11:24:38 GMT -5
Special thanks to Gregor, Jasper and Coeurouge - based on your answers we can now see more clearly what happened to Biduyah (Victorio) and what went wrong.
It seems that the attacking Mexican force followed a clever strategy. Perhaps this was due to the presence of Luis Garcia who understood Apache tactics, and also to the contributions of Tarahumara Indians. Since the Mexicans were fighting against Victorio and a large band of Apache warriors - they certainly knew the seriousness of the battle that was coming. It seems that they divided their army (roughly 260-300 men) into two or three groups. One group continued trailing Victorio from the rear. The other groups went around him from the sides and set up a forward position ahead of him. The forward position was an ambush. This was possible because the Mexicans had fresh horses and a lot of supplies, while Victorio was moving slowly due to the presence of women and children in his band. Furthermore, the Apache people were very tired and probably they had eaten many of their horses for food by this time. So their speed across the plains was not fast.
Quite possibly - the ambush set up by the Mexicans would have finished Victorio immediately. But his scouts must have spotted some trouble ahead, so Victorio took shelter at Tres Castillos. Unfortunately, this place does not offer enough shelter if the enemy force is large and very well equipped. The Mexicans had those advantages in this battle.
This put Biduyah (Victorio) into an impossible decision. I think it likely that if he had just his own band of warriors present (with some Mescalero Apaches), then he could have fought an escape through the Mexican ambush. Some Apaches would have been killed, but most would have survived (although wounded). But Victorio could not abandon all the women and children in his group. And he could not get such a large group free by trying to escape the Mexican lines in the darkness of the night. A few women, children and old men did escape, but the rest were trapped.
So Victorio and his warriors chose to do the honorable thing - fight to the death with no ammunition for their guns. When they sang their death songs for a long time that night - it was with the realization that their situation was lost and could not be won the next day. Instead, they built fortifications by piling rocks, and made their enemies pay as much as possible.
Lozen was apparently delayed by some important purpose. But my guess is that this incident, with the death of her brother and many great warriors amongst the Chihenne, must have haunted her for the rest of her life. She would always wonder about whether she could have warned the Apache band about approaching danger - if she had been present. Lozen was said to have the special Power to forecast the approach of her enemies.
These comments are speculative - since direct evidence of the battle is circumstantial. Bit it seems to make sense based on the facts that are known.
dT
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Post by jasper4 on Aug 25, 2012 10:24:57 GMT -5
Excellent info on the so called battle yet the mexicans have their own stories on the battle such as the youtube segment. The accounts of the some who escaped are oral history and have been passed down to others. Lozen was depressed not to have been with her brother. She was a warrior as many othe NDE women yet her skills for war were of beyond normal folks to those of a Diiyin and she was one. The battle to end the Nde raids and the hatred by the mexicans had always been for hundreds of years. Thanks to all who give info why it is really something which is close to my heart, why I am Mimbreno and Willow band Peace
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Post by teresaslo on Dec 24, 2013 12:31:22 GMT -5
Great site, does anyone know anymore information about these people? I think my relatives were a part of the group.
My Grandmother would always tell my Mom that she was Apache. It was very important to her. I found her whole family in Texas with connections between El Paso and Sweetwater. I have many pictures "documentation style" My GGGM and GGreat aunt holding hands looking frightened.
on
My GGrandfather was born in El Paso 1880 so I am thinking they may have been a part of this group. I have all the books on the Apache but just after a decade of research it is coming clearer. None of the family in Texas have been much help.
It seems as if the Lipan Apache group has some of my family members by the last name of Torres and Rodriguez and the Mescalero Tribe has been helpful but not giving out much info. The Former Historian for the Lipan was very helpful as to even say we were related to them from the info I gave her. She died a few years ago.....
I do not want all my research to be lost. I sent the historian photos and names and now that she has died I don't know what happened to all that info!
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Post by dT on Dec 25, 2013 22:13:25 GMT -5
this is just a suggestion. to make further progress, you would need to find out where the core group of the Lipan Apache tribe is now located. You might talk to folks at the Mescalero Reservation, but I don't know if the Lipans call this their home. Once you locate their main home site, your best bet is to go there. It will require patience, and it would work much better if you had a contact before you left for that place. Good luck to you.
dT
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Post by naiches2 on Apr 27, 2014 19:32:06 GMT -5
In Mexican custody  |
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nde
New Member
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Post by nde on Dec 20, 2014 23:01:49 GMT -5
Here are some things that remain puzzling about Victorio's final battle at Tres Castillos. At least - these things are problems for my understanding. :-) 1. Why was Victorio so far south into Mexico at this stage. He was travelling on territory that was less familiar (perhaps), and did not offer really good protection for the woman and children. So why was he in this part of the land, instead of further north where the Apache strongholds were located? 2. Why was Victorio surprised by the Mexican forces who were trailing him? Did he fail to post scouts on the rear of his group who would see an enemy approaching from behind? Or did he post those scouts, but the Mexican forces were clever and found a way to distract or kill them silently? 3. Why did Lozen choose not to travel with her brother on this journey? 4. How many horses did Victorio have when he fought this final battle? The availability of horses would have given him more choices for defense, because he could have split his warriors into different attacking parties. But with few horses, his men would have been confined to the hills and piles of rock. Pehaps the Chihennes had already killed a lot of their horses, because they were low on food. 5. If some women, children and old men could escape in the night, before the final fight when all of the warriors were killed, then why didn't Victorio attempt to use his warriors to break out at night through the Mexican lines? Perhaps we will never know the answers to most of these questions. But there may be some answers still within the Chiricahua community today, and some other answers that could be researched by people who look into old information from Mexico. dT To give some feedback from my POV in the order to your inq. 1. Nde had been known to range into old mexico as far as 250 miles. 2. The tracking by tarahumara 3. lozen well. two stories are one she was at san carlos doubt it, was with group of women and children who were left behind due to one woman giving birth and Lozen led this group. 4. There would have been a small number of horses, due to they were a food source. The group had been encircled thus trapped. 5. Nde when facing death will always defend women and children why women can birth more and the children are future of the band. My answers, at best not to detailed, yet the death of Biduyah and many great warriors still is a testimony to the 'Tigers of the human species' as the white general was quoted to say about the Nde Peace Lozen didn't go with Victorio because one of the women in their band was in labor and as a healer it was Lozen's responsibility to stay behind and assist the Apache woman giving birth |
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Post by Kbar on Apr 17, 2015 15:03:33 GMT -5
Niaches-
I am also interested in the original source for these images, particularly the first one with the prisoners holding the scalps. I hope you can help me out!
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Post by dT on Apr 17, 2015 17:49:37 GMT -5
Jasper4 and Nde ... THANK YOU for your comments above.
I did not know that about Lozen - it explains things very well.
dT
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chi1
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Post by chi1 on Apr 24, 2015 18:48:13 GMT -5
Here are some things that remain puzzling about Victorio's final battle at Tres Castillos. At least - these things are problems for my understanding. :-) 1. Why was Victorio so far south into Mexico at this stage. He was travelling on territory that was less familiar (perhaps), and did not offer really good protection for the woman and children. So why was he in this part of the land, instead of further north where the Apache strongholds were located? 2. Why was Victorio surprised by the Mexican forces who were trailing him? Did he fail to post scouts on the rear of his group who would see an enemy approaching from behind? Or did he post those scouts, but the Mexican forces were clever and found a way to distract or kill them silently? 3. Why did Lozen choose not to travel with her brother on this journey? 4. How many horses did Victorio have when he fought this final battle? The availability of horses would have given him more choices for defense, because he could have split his warriors into different attacking parties. But with few horses, his men would have been confined to the hills and piles of rock. Pehaps the Chihennes had already killed a lot of their horses, because they were low on food. 5. If some women, children and old men could escape in the night, before the final fight when all of the warriors were killed, then why didn't Victorio attempt to use his warriors to break out at night through the Mexican lines? Perhaps we will never know the answers to most of these questions. But there may be some answers still within the Chiricahua community today, and some other answers that could be researched by people who look into old information from Mexico. dT dT, Victorio was not in unfamiliar territory, he frequently operate on this area, the Chihene were more of the desert than of the Sierra Madre, also Victorio said to have been abducted by the Apache parent son of Mexican mestizo women near by, and being on a familiar territory does not detract him, it was a simply unfortunate situation, and he brought him children women and elderly, which made slower the progress, once reached, left the vulnerable column to protect them but the Warriors also lost lead by this maneuver, not counting their disproportionate number 400 Mexican soldiers, irregular, Ranchers and Tarahumara scouts against only 70 brave and fierce warriors who resisted all afternoon and evening; also he had a busy month in both countries; for example: On September 10, US troops receive permission to enter Mexico, with 68 Apache scouts under Captain Charles Parker; a detachment of 20 "Buffalo Soldiers", commanded by Lieutenant James Maney; and another detachment of "Texas Rangers", commanded by Colonel George W. Baylor, addressing the Sierra de la Candelaria (municipality of Ahumada, Chihuahua) where Victorio has been seen. On October 4, ten companies of the 10th Cavalry of the United States move to the Mexican side of the Rio Grande to prevent Victorio can return to the United States through Texas. (The 10th Cavalry and 350 irregular Colonel Terrazas locate it, tightening the noose, when the government of Mexico informs the American troops that their presence is no longer required abandoning Mexico between angry protests. The Colonel Grierson sought unsuccessfully , permission to return to General Sheridan). On October 14, at a place called Tres Castillos (Three Castles) Victorio is reached by Mexican troops under Colonel Joaquin Terrazas, who divides his forces into smaller columns with a front of 20 men only way to hide the numbers all soldiers, so the Apaches did not flee at the sight. (Being one of the columns 1 km from the hills, seen as down to about 30 Apache attack them and the rest is an unfortunate history between the Mexican official report and the narrative of survivors, some say it was the first Victorio to fall into the hands of the Tarahumara Mauricio Corredor, the Ndeh ensure that fought until the last moment in a cave on the hill, whatever it was, both demonstrate courage |
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Post by dT on Apr 24, 2015 22:17:49 GMT -5
Chi1 - THANK YOU for the excellent answer. I think you are right ... many people were pursuing Victorio all at the same time. So he probably had scouts who gave him information that some escape routes were cut off. This makes a lot of sense to me. Also, I knew that the Mexicans were using the Tarahumara as scouts. And those Indians were excellent runners and good trackers. I didn't know about the strategy that the Mexican soldiers used - to make it appear that there were only small numbers. it is a clever strategy.
BUT the main thing is ... I AGREE with you. Victorio and his men fought with tremendous courage. And they fought all day and night. So they only lost when they ran out of ammunition, and then the Mexican soldiers used dynamite.
The things I asked about Lozen - now I know what happened with her. So at this time, I think I understand what happened at Tres Castillos. It was a great fight by Victorio, and it turned out to be a great loss for the whole Apache people.
kindest regards,
dT
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Post by dT on Apr 25, 2015 0:32:49 GMT -5
One other thing needs to be said about Victorio and the Battle of Tres Castillos.
Because we should honor the tradition of Oak (Cochise) and speak the truth here.
The leader on the opposite side of this battle was Colonel Joaquin Terrazas. He was a Mexican Army man, and a legend in his own country. He was Mexico's equivalent of "Buffalo Bill", and those that knew him say he was a lot tougher than his American equivalent. Terrazas had devoted most of his life to trying to push the Apaches out of Chihuahua State. So when Victorio showed up, he saw this as his golden opportunity to obtain a victory. Most of the men with Terrazas were actually volunteers, because he had gone around Chihuahua and got 350 men to volunteer for service. So these men, along with some Army regulars and the Tarahumara Indian detachment - were the people who went to fight Victorio.
This puts the battle into perspective. Victorio was probably not outnumbered by 20:1, but the odds were at least 6:1 in favor of Terrazas. And the Mexicans had the advantage that Victorio was slowed down because he was protecting many Apache women and children.
dT
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juan
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Post by juan on Aug 10, 2017 22:03:11 GMT -5
Just a hello I found an object in the Sandhills of El Paso Tx in the horizon Blvd before it goes across I-10
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Post by naiches2 on Feb 7, 2019 10:34:07 GMT -5
Two more mexican prisoners photos.   |
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