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Post by naiches2 on Feb 20, 2011 10:06:59 GMT -5
You need click at my tag (naiches2) and click at 'Send Personal Message'
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Post by jeroen on Feb 20, 2011 14:54:49 GMT -5
I am pretty sure Fransesca and Huera are actually one and the same, the known portrait of Huera shows a woman with a severe scar ( may well be from the mountain lion attack). Also, Huera was very close to Geronimo (see her influence on Geronimo in the instigation of the 1885 escape) and they did marry later on... Kaywaykla was a little boy at the time and to him she may have seemed old... that Kaywaykla referred to Nana as Grandfather can also be as a sign of respect... Apaches rarely used personal names, but rather family relation terms, even if they were not actually related...
groetjes John en tot spoedig!
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Post by naiches2 on Feb 20, 2011 15:41:51 GMT -5
I am pretty sure Fransesca and Huera are actually one and the same, the known portrait of Huera shows a woman with a severe scar ( may well be from the mountain lion attack). Also, Huera was very close to Geronimo (see her influence on Geronimo in the instigation of the 1885 escape) and they did marry later on... Kaywaykla was a little boy at the time and to him she may have seemed old... that Kaywaykla referred to Nana as Grandfather can also be as a sign of respect... Apaches rarely used personal names, but rather family relation terms, even if they were not actually related... groetjes John en tot spoedig!  |
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Post by johnmartin on Feb 20, 2011 15:43:07 GMT -5
I studied the photo of Huera in the topic apache woman. I guess you'r right Jeroen, groetjes!
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Post by Second on Feb 22, 2011 9:25:34 GMT -5
Hello Naiches, can you quide me to Princeton's site. Is it www.Princeton's etc. Thanks Second. |
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Post by naiches2 on Feb 22, 2011 9:58:00 GMT -5
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Post by Second on Feb 22, 2011 10:22:56 GMT -5
Hello Naiches,
Can u plese tell me the name of the site you got the Terraza pictures from. I tried Princeton University but had no luck
Thank,
Second
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Post by coeurrouge on Mar 1, 2011 15:42:42 GMT -5
Hello everyone, I am reading this board for a while. Until now Jeroen brought in some questions I posed, but I think it’s time to speak for myself. James Kaywaykla, in Eve Ball’s In the days of Victorio, tells how his grandmother took care for him while his mother, Gouyan, accompanied her husband on the warpath. They separated at Tres Castillos. Five years later they reunited. His grandmother had escaped slavery, with four other young apache women, in Mexico City, and they had find their way back to their tribal grounds. From there they were transported to San Carlos. See the chapter Return of the women in the mentioned book. In Eve Ball’s Indeh Eugene Cihuahua tells a story over the escape of his grandmother (mother’s side), and the similarities are such, that must be referring to the same event. According to him. The woman’s name was Francesca. On her way back she was attacked by a mountain lion, which ruined her face. Later, Geronimo toke here as wife, because “such a brave woman deserved a good husband”. Jeroen guessed that Francesca is the Spanish name for Huera, Mangas wife. So does Sweeney in his latest book (page 368), but I am not convinced. Kaywaykla’s grandmother was already old, and Kaywaykla denotes Nana as his grandpa. Further, in the chapter mentioned, his grandma speaks of one of the other fugitives as Huera. So my guess is that Huera fled under the leadership of Francesca, together with Siki. Finally, the woman with white hair looks strong. Could that be Francesca? And the woman next to her r right, could that be Siki? Best regards for all of you, J. If the woman with white hair was KaywayKla's grandmother, she could be Zhee-Kardn, born on 1814, died on 1907 à Fort Sill, and sister of Nana. |
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Post by Second on Mar 13, 2011 13:43:19 GMT -5
Hello everyone, I just recvd an ISBN for my book and I have entered the last phase of publishing. My book is titled Second Jumper, searching for his bloodline. Written by Sigfried R. Second-Jumper.
It has taken me 5 yrs to write it. It starts out with the surrendering of the Chiricahuas and their journey to Florida as prisoners of war. While in Florida, my great grandparents were separated from the bulk of the Tribe and shipped to Cuba. An event witnessed by other prisoners, and recorded in their oral history and songs.
Also recorded and photographed by my family are my great grandparent’s arrival in Cuba, their struggles, sacrifices and accomplishments. Some of my great grandparent’s descendents began migrating to Florida, settling on the outskirts of the Florida Everglades. It was there that I discovered a Miccosukee Indian camp tucked deep in the swamps. Little did I know I was meeting the remnants of the only Unconquered Nation, The Florida Seminoles. In time I learned to master the art of breaking in horses, wrestling alligators, followed by 15 yrs of dancing and singing among them. These events were captured and will be shown with never before seen photographs.
Through their encouragement, I along with my family set out on a trip across country, in search of our long lost Apache relatives. A long journey that started in St. Augustine, FL, Oklahoma, Arizona, ended at the Mescalero Apache Reservation in NM. Upon arrival at Mescalero, I was welcomed and accepted by ex-prisoners of war, the Chiricahuas and ultimately my long lost relatives. Unaware of my past tribal history, I was inaugurated into the medicine circle as a singer for the Chiricahua Crown Dancers. It was there, that I have and continue to learn the traditional ways of the Chiricahuas. After many years of loosing members and traditions, we all decided to record and preserve our ways along with our daily activities for future generations. For the first time ever, the reader will enter into the sacred tepee of the Crown dancers and learned what takes place prior to ceremonies. All of it has been done with the consent of all members.
When the Seminoles learned that I was recording these stories, they asked me to include theirs as well. Some of these tales and photographs have been kept by members of both groups for decades as family treasures. I am honored to have been trusted to write them as they were told to me. All stories were reviewed by all participants prior to publishing to assure that they are told as they would want their great grandchildren to hear them.
Unlike many or most books written about these two groups, this one is done from within. As a result, the participants felt comfortable revealing stories long suppress by fear and mistrust. There is only half a page of references and over 300 pages of the real stories of the Tigers of the Human race, the Chiricahua Apaches and the Only Unconquered Nation, the Florida Seminoles.
I have dedicated my book to future Chiricahua and Seminole descendents but it really pertains to all humans as preserving their ancestral ways is just as important.
I will keep you all posted as soon as my book is available.
Sincerely,
Siggy Jumper
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Post by bobby on May 12, 2011 17:03:05 GMT -5
Hello everyone, I am reading this board for a while. Until now Jeroen brought in some questions I posed, but I think it’s time to speak for myself. James Kaywaykla, in Eve Ball’s In the days of Victorio, tells how his grandmother took care for him while his mother, Gouyan, accompanied her husband on the warpath. They separated at Tres Castillos. Five years later they reunited. His grandmother had escaped slavery, with four other young apache women, in Mexico City, and they had find their way back to their tribal grounds. From there they were transported to San Carlos. See the chapter Return of the women in the mentioned book. In Eve Ball’s Indeh Eugene Cihuahua tells a story over the escape of his grandmother (mother’s side), and the similarities are such, that must be referring to the same event. According to him. The woman’s name was Francesca. On her way back she was attacked by a mountain lion, which ruined her face. Later, Geronimo toke here as wife, because “such a brave woman deserved a good husband”. Jeroen guessed that Francesca is the Spanish name for Huera, Mangas wife. So does Sweeney in his latest book (page 368), but I am not convinced. Kaywaykla’s grandmother was already old, and Kaywaykla denotes Nana as his grandpa. Further, in the chapter mentioned, his grandma speaks of one of the other fugitives as Huera. So my guess is that Huera fled under the leadership of Francesca, together with Siki. Finally, the woman with white hair looks strong. Could that be Francesca? And the woman next to her r right, could that be Siki? Best regards for all of you, J. If the woman with white hair was KaywayKla's grandmother, she could be Zhee-Kardn, born on 1814, died on 1907 à Fort Sill, and sister of Nana. The information you provided doesn't match the date on the gravestone. Attachments:
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Post by penjady on May 12, 2011 23:19:07 GMT -5
Yes, there are actually a couple of photographs of Siki, like this one from 1898. Her "official" name is Sy-e-konne (or Tsekan), daughter of Clee-hn. Clee-hn was married to Chief Loco but Sy-e-konne was not his daughter. Sy-e-konne was Toclannys last wife. I am pretty sure Fransesca and Huera are actually one and the same, the known portrait of Huera shows a woman with a severe scar ( may well be from the mountain lion attack). Also, Huera was very close to Geronimo (see her influence on Geronimo in the instigation of the 1885 escape) and they did marry later on... Kaywaykla was a little boy at the time and to him she may have seemed old... that Kaywaykla referred to Nana as Grandfather can also be as a sign of respect... Apaches rarely used personal names, but rather family relation terms, even if they were not actually related... groetjes John en tot spoedig! You are right. Francesca and Huera are the same women. But Huera (Francesca) and Francisco were different women. Francisco 1847-1901. Francisco is the lady that was dragged by a Mountain Lion after their escape in Mexico. As for marrying, Geronimo had a wife after Zi-yeh (d. 1904), name not recalled, and before his last wife, Azul, marrying in 1907. However, Francisco passed away in 1901. No known husbands or children. Huera or Dilth-cley-ih or Tze-gu-juni was married to Mangus, son of Mangus Coloradas. Dilth-cley-ih was a daughter of Chief Victorio. With Mangus, they had Beshade, Lillian, Faith, Flora, Frank and Cora. She is the famous Tiswin maker. And being from a prominent family, if she and Geronimo were married, we would know. |
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Post by jeroen on May 13, 2011 5:32:33 GMT -5
Sorry Penjady, but I respectfully disagree in that I don't think Huera and Dilth cley ih were one and the same person, but rather two different wives of Mangas. The children you mention were those of Dilth cley ih, Huera had no children. Huera was captured in the summer of 1885, while Dilt cley ih surrendered with Mangas's small group in october 1886.
It is said that she married Geronimo during the Alabama years (when she'd divorced from Mangas), but that the union did not last long.
To confuse things even more, Geronimo says the badly mauled woman, Fransisco, was about 17 years at the time of the cougar attack and died at Fort Sill in 1892 (!?!) Huera (Fransesca) did die at Mount Vernon in 1892, while the Fransisco you mention died in 1901...
Also see the article I posted in the Chiricahua Apache women thread...
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Post by laluna on Aug 27, 2011 2:01:10 GMT -5
Hi, I just found this board and it is great!
I know this is an old thread, but I had a question. In a manuscript that I am translating it states that Don Joaquin Terrazas in his memoirs took 74 scalps, purporting that only 4 came from women and children. The author of this manuscript states that the survivors of Tres Castillos said there were only 20 warriors present and the rest were women and children. If this is the case, this picture becomes all the more gruesome. Does anyone have any further information on this? I'd really appreciate it! Thanks
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Post by magendavid on Aug 28, 2011 16:23:17 GMT -5
Hallo laluna
Terrazas report claimed for the killing of 61 Apache warriors at Tres Castillos and 17 women and children, totaling 78.
This number of warriors killed really doesn't fit with Apache memoires. They tell that Victorio had only few warriors with him when attacted, after sending several warriors parties to gather ammunition and food and to perform active rear guard duties. The sources aren't sufficiant, so we must complete with our assumptions, but it seems very likely that out of the total force of 50-60 warriors that he had at the time, Victorio kept only about 20-25 directly with him at Tres Castillos. If it's correct, than most of the 78 apache dead weren't warriors.
you can look at Sweeney p.166, regarding the Mescalero's had 44 killed there, but only less than ten of them warriors.
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Post by laluna on Aug 30, 2011 15:23:34 GMT -5
Thank you magendavid,
I haven't read Sweeney's book yet, but I'm ordering today.
Appreciate the response and the confirmation there.
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