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Post by Second on Jul 15, 2013 20:03:57 GMT -5
Hello everyone! I am in need of help in identifying Jolsanny's FIRST wife Nes-chila and her family history and or photographs. More specifically her sister or sisters. If anyone can come up with their names,history and/or photographs of these ladies, it would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Second
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sasja
New Member
Posts: 42
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Post by sasja on Jan 27, 2014 11:02:50 GMT -5
1:Taz-ay-Slath, 1' :her son with Geronimo 2: Huera 3 : Dohn-Say?, 3': Nina Dakheya? 4:? 5:?, 5':? 6:?, 6'? 7: Older wife of Chihuahua?, 7': Ramona Chihuahua? 8: Ilth-Gazy, 8': Tom Chihuahua 9: second wife of Chihuahua and sister of Ilth-Gazy?, 8': Eugene ? 10: Tascenola 11:?, 11':? 12: Neschila?, 12': her boy, 12": her teenage girl 13:? 14:? your opinion, guys? I agree with most of the identification: 1 Taz Ay Slath 1' her son 2 Huera 3 Dohn Say 3' Nina Dahkeya 4 Counteza? 5 ?? 5' ?? 6 Zi Yeh 6' Fenton 7 ?? 7' Hardcase? 8 Ilth Gazie 8' Osceola 9 Eugene's Mother, Name? 9' Eugene 10 Tascenola 11 Hadunkey and child Maybe? 12 Neschilla 12' her son 12'' Her daughter 13?? 14?? Question did Ramona and Eugene have different mother's? If so I might agree with what was said earlier that Neschilla might be chihuahua's wife and the girl might be Ramona. I am suggesting that 11 might be Hadunkey simply because she is siting near Geronimo's family?
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sasja
New Member
Posts: 42
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Post by sasja on Jan 27, 2014 11:17:19 GMT -5
Also found this photo : seems to be taken at Fort Bowie April 1886. Could this be the woman with the tsoch ( nr 14) and the girl beside her (nr 13)? If so does anyone know who they are?
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Post by kayitah on Jan 27, 2014 14:31:06 GMT -5
Here's a better view of this image:
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Post by dT on Jan 27, 2014 14:47:05 GMT -5
I am always amazed by how well you folks identify these people in the old photographs. I just cant imagine the amount of patience it must take to work out these identifcations.
OF SPECIAL INTEREST in the group photo shown above is the woman named "Huera" who is Number 2 in the photo. This is the same woman who was captured by the Mexicans (after a battle with the Apaches), escaped slavery, fought off an attack by a lion (cougar or jaguar?) in the night time using only a small knife, had her face ripped up by the lion, managed to walk hundreds of miles through the wilderness (part of the time barefoot), made it back home to Arizona, and eventually married Geronimo. I am guessing that because Huera looks young in this photo, maybe this incident happened after the photo was taken? But I cant be sure, because I cant see her face very clearly. She was said to have some terrible scars on her face and head after the incident.
Huera was an incredibly brave woman!!! There was a lot more to her character than the humble image of one woman - seen sitting on the dusty ground (in the photo).
dT
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sasja
New Member
Posts: 42
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Post by sasja on Jan 28, 2014 7:36:23 GMT -5
Thank you for the much clearer photo Kayitah still doing some comparisons, not so sure about my earlier thinking about the women and girl. How ever I think my identification of Hadunkey as nr 11 is wrong, more likely is number 7 ( in the group Photo) sitting just in front of Zi Yeh holding a baby The lady sitting behind Ilth gazie in this photo: also 5' in the group photo is probably Ramona, the girl to the right of the elder lady Any opinions? dT I agree Huera was a remarkable woman, to live through all that she did, incredibly strong and courageous!
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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 1, 2014 9:42:12 GMT -5
1:Taz-ay-Slath, 1' :her son with Geronimo 2: Huera 3 : Dohn-Say?, 3': Nina Dakheya? 4:? 5:?, 5':? 6:?, 6'? 7: Older wife of Chihuahua?, 7': Ramona Chihuahua? 8: Ilth-Gazy, 8': Tom Chihuahua 9: second wife of Chihuahua and sister of Ilth-Gazy?, 8': Eugene ? 10: Tascenola 11:?, 11':? 12: Neschila?, 12': her boy, 12": her teenage girl 13:? 14:? your opinion, guys? I agree with most of the identification: 1 Taz Ay Slath 1' her son 2 Huera 3 Dohn Say 3' Nina Dahkeya 4 Counteza? 5 ?? 5' ?? 6 Zi Yeh 6' Fenton 7 ?? 7' Hardcase? 8 Ilth Gazie 8' Osceola 9 Eugene's Mother, Name? 9' Eugene 10 Tascenola 11 Hadunkey and child Maybe? 12 Neschilla 12' her son 12'' Her daughter 13?? 14?? Question did Ramona and Eugene have different mother's? If so I might agree with what was said earlier that Neschilla might be chihuahua's wife and the girl might be Ramona. I am suggesting that 11 might be Hadunkey simply because she is siting near Geronimo's family? Much progress since I wrote that Now where I am on my opinion : 1:Taz Ay Slath- Zi Yeh 1' her son Fenton 2 Huera 3 Dohn Say 3' Nina Dahkeya 4 Counteza (Who will be Hulda Kinzhuna) 5 Nah-dos-te (Nana's Wife) 5' ?? 6 Dish-tel 6' Be-kiva (wife and daughter of Stalosh) 7 Chihuahua's wife name? 7' Mable Chihuahua 8 Ilth Gazie 8' Tom Chihuahua 9 Chihuahua's wife, Name? 9' 10 Tascenola 11 Wife and Boy of Nezulkide maybe 12 Neschilla - Nah-zis-eh (Ulzanna's wife) 12' Adam (boy of Ulzanna) 12'' Tsalth-zay-nah-zizzy (Neschila'niece) 13 Loozah (Tsinah's wife) 14 Nah-Zitz-Ohn and her bady boy (Mohtsos' second wife) 14??
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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 1, 2014 9:44:22 GMT -5
Also found this photo : seems to be taken at Fort Bowie April 1886. Could this be the woman with the tsoch ( nr 14) and the girl beside her (nr 13)? If so does anyone know who they are? for me the younger was Behasde, a stepdaughter of Mangas ( daugther of Dilth-Cleyhen and Pajita killed by Loco in 1873). The older was Bey-Gin-Shoos , an aunt of Mangas.
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Post by kayitah on Feb 1, 2014 11:26:45 GMT -5
Your identifications are awesome to say the least, great work!!
I agree in nearly all cases, but I can't see many women that resemble Hah-dun-key, assuming she's one of the two women in the photo made in Florida (which shows Perico, two women - supposedly Hah-dun-key and Bi-ya-neta - and two children).
It seems to me no. 6 and no. 9 are the only ones with a resemblance to the woman wearing a dark skirt in the 'family photo' from Florida...
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Post by Mithlo on Feb 3, 2014 19:54:45 GMT -5
01) Zi-yeh (wife of Geronimo) 02) Fenton Geronimo (son of Zi-yeh and Geronimo) 03) Huera 04) Dohn-say (Daughter of Geronimo and wife of Mike Day-keya) 05) Nina Day-keya (Daughter of Dohn-say and Mike Day-keya) 06) Counteza (Possible Hulda Kinzhuna) 07) Ih-tedda (wife of Geronimo) 08) Four year old girl (Daughter of Geronimo and She-ga) 09) Unknown 10) Unknown 11) Unknown 12) Unknown 13) Unknown 14) Nah-zitz-ohn (wife of Mostos) 15) Jamie Holly (Ah-tay)(son of Mostos and Nah-zitz-ohn) 16) Hah-dun-key (wife of Perico) 17) Fredrick(?) Perico (Son of Perico and Han-dun-key) 18) Gozie (Ilth-gazie)(wife of Chihuahua) 19) Eugene Chihuahua 20) Tom Chihuahua 21) Tascenola 22) Nah-de-yole (wife of Naiche) 23) Paul Naiche (son of Naiche and Nah-de-yole) 24) Bah-nas-kli Naiche (son of Naiche and E-clah-heh) 25) Nah-zis-eh (Neschila)(wife of Jolsanny) 26) Adam Jolsanny 27) Tsalth-zay-nah-zizzy (neice of Neschila)
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Post by Mithlo on Feb 3, 2014 21:29:46 GMT -5
Gozie (Ilth-gazie) was indeed the mother of Ramona Chihuahua (who is not in the group photograph)....also there was another Chihuahua son amoung the captives named "Ocala" whom was with his aunt and uncle up at Fort Apache at the time....he was "sent for" but had not arrived until after these photographs were taken, Ocala was older than Tom but younger than Eugene. Also.... there had been another Jolsanny son amoung the captives younger than Adam whom died on the return trip down to Fort Bowie when he fell from the side of a wagon on his head....which killed him, therefore he is not in the photographs either. Tsalth-zay-nah-zizzy and Biete were the young orphaned children of the woman (Hair-almost-to-the-ground),Neschila's cousin. Nah-de-yole's father "Skinya" was also an older cousin of Neschila's....he being a brother of Hair-almost-to-the-ground. Not the Chihuahua's.......but the others mentioned were once part of the "Large" "Extended" Skinya-Pionsenay family group....almost a band of their own.....but under the leadership of Cochise!
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Post by Mithlo on Feb 3, 2014 21:52:48 GMT -5
Also found this photo : seems to be taken at Fort Bowie April 1886. Could this be the woman with the tsoch ( nr 14) and the girl beside her (nr 13)? If so does anyone know who they are? for me the younger was Behasde, a stepdaughter of Mangas ( daugther of Dilth-Cleyhen and Pajita killed by Loco in 1873). The older was Bey-Gin-Shoos , an aunt of Mangas. The photograph looks like a Ben Wittick photo taken "most-likely" in 1884....give or take a year....and "most-likely" not taken in 1886 at Fort Bowie of "captives". Coeurrouge....I can't agree with you 100% on the ID's but I agree with you completely that these folks are members of the Mangus family indeed!!!! Be-sha-de.... ?....I not sure! Though the girl's features look more like Be-sha-de's younger sister Elsie Vance Chestuen....just hard to be sure! Mangus family members indeed though!!!! "GREAT WORK COEURROUGE!!!!
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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 4, 2014 16:00:10 GMT -5
for me the younger was Behasde, a stepdaughter of Mangas ( daugther of Dilth-Cleyhen and Pajita killed by Loco in 1873). The older was Bey-Gin-Shoos , an aunt of Mangas. The photograph looks like a Ben Wittick photo taken "most-likely" in 1884....give or take a year....and "most-likely" not taken in 1886 at Fort Bowie of "captives". Coeurrouge....I can't agree with you 100% on the ID's but I agree with you completely that these folks are members of the Mangus family indeed!!!! Be-sha-de.... ?....I not sure! Though the girl's features look more like Be-sha-de's younger sister Elsie Vance Chestuen....just hard to be sure! Mangus family members indeed though!!!! "GREAT WORK COEURROUGE!!!! Look as her big eye. On another photo identified as Be-sha-de, I do not remember which one the young woman looks like in this one especially the big eyes and Elsie do not have these eyes.
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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 4, 2014 16:05:41 GMT -5
Gozie (Ilth-gazie) was indeed the mother of Ramona Chihuahua (who is not in the group photograph)....also there was another Chihuahua son amoung the captives named "Ocala" whom was with his aunt and uncle up at Fort Apache at the time....he was "sent for" but had not arrived until after these photographs were taken, Ocala was older than Tom but younger than Eugene. Also.... there had been another Jolsanny son amoung the captives younger than Adam whom died on the return trip down to Fort Bowie when he fell from the side of a wagon on his head....which killed him, therefore he is not in the photographs either. Tsalth-zay-nah-zizzy and Biete were the young orphaned children of the woman (Hair-almost-to-the-ground),Neschila's cousin. Nah-de-yole's father "Skinya" was also an older cousin of Neschila's....he being a brother of Hair-almost-to-the-ground. Not the Chihuahua's.......but the others mentioned were once part of the "Large" "Extended" Skinya-Pionsenay family group....almost a band of their own.....but under the leadership of Cochise! On june all the family of Chihuahua was taken by scout. Why the other 2 wifes of Chihuahua were not in the photo ?
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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 4, 2014 16:20:11 GMT -5
01) Zi-yeh (wife of Geronimo) 02) Fenton Geronimo (son of Zi-yeh and Geronimo) 03) Huera 04) Dohn-say (Daughter of Geronimo and wife of Mike Day-keya) 05) Nina Day-keya (Daughter of Dohn-say and Mike Day-keya) 06) Counteza (Possible Hulda Kinzhuna) 07) Ih-tedda (wife of Geronimo) 08) Four year old girl (Daughter of Geronimo and She-ga) 09) Unknown 10) Unknown 11) Unknown 12) Unknown 13) Unknown 14) Nah-zitz-ohn (wife of Mostos) 15) Jamie Holly (Ah-tay)(son of Mostos and Nah-zitz-ohn) 16) Hah-dun-key (wife of Perico) 17) Fredrick(?) Perico (Son of Perico and Han-dun-key) 18) Gozie (Ilth-gazie)(wife of Chihuahua) 19) Eugene Chihuahua 20) Tom Chihuahua 21) Tascenola 22) Nah-de-yole (wife of Naiche) 23) Paul Naiche (son of Naiche and Nah-de-yole) 24) Bah-nas-kli Naiche (son of Naiche and E-clah-heh) 25) Nah-zis-eh (Neschila)(wife of Jolsanny) 26) Adam Jolsanny 27) Tsalth-zay-nah-zizzy (neice of Neschila) NICE WORK TOO Mithlo ! Thanks a lot, it helps me on the 144 list. I still think n°9 was Na-dos-te just an idea. I change my mind and it was possible that N)10 was Bekiva, 10 years daughter of Stalosh and Dishtel I am quite sure that n°11 and 12 were Nezulkide's wife and child because when he died on june 1886 (3 months later) he had a wife and one year child. Nezulkide was the last to come back in San Carlos in 1884. When Geronimo and Naiche went away again on march 1886, he followed them. Why did he changed his mind? I think because his wife and chid were captured in august, 1885 during the attack by scouts of Geronimo and Mangas common camp. I am sure that n°13 was Loozah, wife of Tsinah, who would named Lucy Tsinah. It would explain too why Tsinah did not stay with his brothers Fun and Perico.
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