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Post by kayitah on Jul 29, 2010 5:59:20 GMT -5
Thanks, my identification exactly. I think the man just behind Geronimo could be Beshe, the man sitting far left is also seen in at least two of the Fort Bowie images... could he be Kilthigai?I agree, Kilthdigai or Motsos. Do we know if Kilthdigai and Tsisnah are one and the same person, or not? And may I ask you to post the Fort Bowie photographs you're referring to? Sounds interesting...  |
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Post by perico on Jul 29, 2010 11:37:34 GMT -5
Thanks, my identification exactly. I think the man just behind Geronimo could be Beshe, the man sitting far left is also seen in at least two of the Fort Bowie images... could he be Kilthigai?I agree, Kilthdigai or Motsos. Do we know if Kilthdigai and Tsisnah are one and the same person, or not? And may I ask you to post the Fort Bowie photographs you're referring to? Sounds interesting... IMO I think Kilthdigai and Tsisnah are the same person. |
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Post by jeroen on Jul 31, 2010 3:12:46 GMT -5
These are the Fort Bowie photographs:  (the individual standing behind Geronimo) and:  (sitting on porch) Kilthigai and Tsisnah being the same person would explain what happened with Tsisnah (him being present at Embudos, but not in the Chihuahua group at Marion). Also, with his brother Fun in the Naiche/Geronimo band, it would be a logical choice for him to join that group. But, Kilthdigai, in the Davis list, is estimated to be about 35 years old, not the early 20's of Tsisnah. And, so far, I have not identified Tsisnah in any of the Bowie images, the train photo or the Fort Houston pictures (while he is prominent in a number of Fly photos). His absence in the photos and the estimated age difference by Davis obviously are not conclusive evidence, but it makes you wonder.... |
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Post by kayitah on Jul 31, 2010 15:46:39 GMT -5
top image, far right is Bésh.
While I agree with Jeroen that the man (white/tan hat, black waistcoat) in the two images above is one and the same individual, I'm not entirely convinced it's the same person as in the Fort Sam Houston photograph.
The man sitting on the porch at Fort Bowie may be Laziyah. The individual next to him could be Ahnandia.
Here's some info on Motsos, from H. Henrietta Stockel's "Shame and Endurance"
"There is 1st, an indian at Ft. Pickens, one of the prisoners by the name of Mot-sos (the interpreter spells it) whose wife did not come. She has three children by him with her - presumably gone to Mt. Vernon Barracks. His case is particularly hard because he is remarkably attached to his family. There may have been some intriguing to effect this separation, on the part of the chiefs, who only had to keep silence to prevent her coming here."
There's also info on Tissnolthos, Chappo, and Ahnandia.
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Post by jeroen on Aug 2, 2010 3:17:39 GMT -5
Could be the individual is Laziyah... The boy in the top image at right is Garditha... any thoughts about the others on the porch? The second image, my guess for the one sitting behind Laziyah(?) would be Nahbay... In the Stanley list it is stated that Motsos was unmarried, which was obviously untrue; his family was in Fort Marion already. So it is safe to conclude that their seperation took place at least as early as the Chihuahua surrender, or may be even before that. No wonder je took it very hard... Here's another rather rare Fort Bowie image:  |
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Post by kayitah on Aug 2, 2010 15:31:37 GMT -5
Could be the individual is Laziyah... The boy in the top image at right is Garditha... any thoughts about the others on the porch? The second image, my guess for the one sitting behind Laziyah(?) would be Nahbay...In the Stanley list it is stated that Motsos was unmarried, which was obviously untrue; his family was in Fort Marion already. So it is safe to conclude that their seperation took place at least as early as the Chihuahua surrender, or may be even before that. No wonder je took it very hard... Here's another rather rare Fort Bowie image: (possibly) Laziyah? I guess you meant the man sitting next to him on the porch, between him and Bésh...? |
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Post by jeroen on Aug 3, 2010 4:55:00 GMT -5
Yes, that is the one.... but you could be right it is Ahnandia... Do you have an idea who is the man standing next to Naiche in the first Bowie photograph?
Also, Kanseah stated in Eve Ball's Indeh that Eyelash was in the Naiche/Geronimo band, and being a brother of Fun and Tsisnah, that would be logical. But he is not mentioned in the Stanley list... Nor is he among the men in Chihuahua's group... What can we make of this?
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Post by kayitah on Aug 3, 2010 13:49:33 GMT -5
I am sorry, but the image is too small and I don't have a clearer image than yours. I don't know who the man besides Naiché is. Judging on what few we can see, I'd say it's none of Fun, Hunlona, Perico, Chappo, Nahbay, or Kanseah. Maybe Yahnozha or Zhonne...?
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Post by naiches2 on Aug 3, 2010 16:28:14 GMT -5
Maybe this will help Attachments:
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Post by jeroen on Aug 4, 2010 2:26:20 GMT -5
Not really, it is not the same image...
I don't think it is Yanozha either, in fact, in my opinion, he does not resemble any of the "known" men, so maybe this is Motsos... I don't have a larger picture either, but it would surely help...
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Post by perico on Aug 4, 2010 10:53:18 GMT -5
Could be Martine or Kayitah.
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Post by jeroen on Aug 5, 2010 10:52:29 GMT -5
Maybe, although he does not really resemble either one of them... but I agree it is not easy to judge from such a poor quality image... hope somebody got a better one.
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Post by jeroen on Aug 20, 2010 3:09:59 GMT -5
A wonderful portrait of Naiche in old age:  |
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Post by jeroen on Sept 11, 2010 3:16:21 GMT -5
 Earlier somewhere in these threads, I wondered about the people that did not surrender with Naiche and Geronimo... and just before meeting with Miles Naiche was waiting for a "brother" who had not come in yet... Doing some research, I am now convinced this relative was named Satsinitsu and was actually either a nephew or a brother-in-law. He was probably one of the six (or seven) who "at the last moment refused to surrender and fled back to Mexico..." Leader of this tiny group was a man named Natculbaye, a member of Geronimo's band. The third man was Adilnadzid, of Naiche's people. Sam Haozous stated in 1938 that this man was middle aged at the time and had a son... this could well be Satsinitsu who, as stated by both Gatewood and Clay was a young man at the time.. The other members were women and I have not found their names. The seventh may have been a child. They were not quickly killed off by Mexican federales as is claimed by some historians, bu survived well into the 20th century. Also, I don't think they refused to surrender but were looking for more of their people to come in... Two more names of members of the Geronimo/Naiche band that remained in Mexico have come up: Napia and El cha nache, but I have not found anything more yet. It seems certain however that there were a few more Chiricahuas still in Mexico following the last surrenders. Daklugie stated in 1950 that "a bunch" of Nden daai (Nedni) never came up north, not in 1883-84 and not in september 1886. These were remnants of Juh's band. And perhaps a few members of Mangus's band also remained... It seems reasonable tos assume that these people more or less found eachother and for years lived a hidden life high in the Sierra madre, possibly joined by Apache refugees from San Carlos and Fort Apache and even a few Yaqui... Hopefully somebody can add some more info... |
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Post by jeroen on Sept 23, 2010 2:23:36 GMT -5
Yet another image of Naiche and Geronimo at Fort Bowie... Does anybody have this photograph without the markings?  |
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