Naiche/Natchez

[jeroen]

Do you have additional info on Lot Eyelash?

[perico]

Jun 8, 2010 11:02:02 GMT -5 jeroen said:

Do you have additional info on Lot Eyelash?

What do you want to know?

[jeroen]

What was his Apache name, any background info, anything, for he often is mentioned as one of Geronimo's men, but his name is not on the Stanley list.
He obviously spent time at Carlisle, but I also read he was once asked by Geronimo to perform a ceremony to find out why young family members were dying while Geronimo himself reached old age (Eyelash then accused Geronimo of taking their life energy to prolong his own life).

[perico]

Brother of Binday. Lot’s father was White Mountain or San Carlos and his mother was Chokonen (Chiricahua). Lot Eyelash, Jason Betzinez, and Jasper Kanseah were all with Geronimo as horse holders and apprentices to the warriors when he was on the warpath in 1882-83. He was about 16 in 1886.

Eyelash is also confused with Tsisnah and Fun and Perico. For some reason Eyelash gets thrown in there sometimes.

[jeroen]

Thank you.

[jeroen]

This portrait is often identified as being Naiche, and it is usually dated 1877 and taken in San Carlos. Naiche was in his early 20's and this man appears older... The date can be wrong of course, and he does look like Naiche, but somehow I still doubt this is actually him.
Then I found this one, showing the same individual with others, none of them looking familiar:



What do you guys think?

[naiches2]

Jun 17, 2010 0:31:42 GMT -5 jeroen said:

Then I found this one, showing the same individual with others, none of them looking familiar:



What do you guys think?

Man standing left in the back row is Cassadore (Chief of the San Carlos Band from San Carlos Group of the Western Apache)

[kayitah]

at that time, Naiché was a scout at San Carlos and helped Clum capture Geronimo. The man on this image is certainly Naiché - and I think the identification made by naiches2 (you will get an e-mail from me soon, sorry for the delay is also correct.

[jeroen]

Kayitah, what is your source for the statement that Naiche was among the scouts that helped Clum capture Geronimo? As far as I know Naiche was very bitter towards Clum, blaming him for Taza's death, and subsequently had little use for the agent. Why would he become a scout only a few months later?

[kayitah]

Jeroen, you may want to watch American Experience's "We shall remain - Geronimo". I got the information from this documentation.



I also read that the so-called 'Victorio photograph' turned up when Clum needed a picture of him for some newspaper article. He had some Warm Springs men look through his collection of photographs, and wanted to know which one looked the most like Victorio. It turned out that a Yavapai scout known as Beitero looked most like the Mimbres chief.
I will have to search through my stuff, but will post the source as soon as I find it.

[jeroen]

I did watch We shall remain-Geronimo and it indeed says that Naiche was one of the scouts in 1877. The same statement can be found in "Once they moved like the wind" by David Roberts, which was one of the sources for the We shall remain episode on Geronimo. I think Roberts in turn relied on Clum's account which, as you know, is not that reliable.

As for the story about Victorio photo, it could be true of course, but to me, it sounds a bit too far fetched... The authenticity of the Victorio portrait is now in doubt because of the Beitero identification on the copy of this image in the Siris collection (although on the backside there is an id as Victorio, Warm Springs Apache). The handwriting on the front side is the same as on many other images, so it is probably done by a Siris staff member. Also, the Siris copy shows just the head and shoulders, taken from an image showing much more of the body, suggesting the siris copy is not the original image.

My point is, we have to be careful and not yet make a definite identification.

[jeroen]

I got this one from a friend, a close up of Naiche and Geronimo at Bowie, I think it is a cropped one from a larger image.

[jeroen]

Does anybody have the complete version of the picture posted above?

This one has been posted before, just want to make sure I got all the names right of the men in the background so please give your opinion:

[kayitah]

standing, l-r: Ahnandia, Yahnozha, Tissnolthos, Geronimo, Chappo

in front of Tissnolthos is Hunlona, sitting on the right is Naiché. I have no idea abut the others, though...

[jeroen]

Thanks, my identification exactly. I think the man just behind Geronimo could be Beshe, the man sitting far left is also seen in at least two of the Fort Bowie images... could he be Kilthigai?