frank
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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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Post by frank on Jul 16, 2008 3:29:41 GMT -5
The Sans Arc, High Bear was one of the leaders of the Sans Arc/Minniconjou village that decided to surrender at Spotted Tail in the Spring of '77. Soooo..... because of this he was listed as Sans Arc though he infact was a Miniconjou...right? Oooor...was it other way around?
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frank
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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Posts: 148
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Post by frank on Jul 16, 2008 3:28:13 GMT -5
Ok, I'll need to check my sources....I just have a strong feeling about him to be Miniconjou but it wouldnt be first time I'm wrong... I'll get back to this later. Dee Brown listed him as Miniconjou on some book if I recall right... Fighting Indians or something was the book... Let me know if you get some back up information for the Sans Arc theory. Thanks.
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frank
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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Posts: 148
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Post by frank on Jul 16, 2008 1:33:39 GMT -5
Ermmm... Blue Duck (one in this pic with Belle Starr) was a Cherokee right? Based loosely on Satanta the Kiowa how? Tell more details please, I've seen Lonesome Dove of course but never attached BD with Satanta. Here is what I have on Blue Duck: Bluford "Blue" Duck ?–1895 Early Oklahoma outlaw Bluford "Blue" Duck's story, like many others, is interviewed within the legends of two other more famous western personalities; Judge Isaac Parker and outlaw queen Belle Starr. In researching the life of Blue Duck, it was difficult separating fact from fiction. Very little has been written about the man, and often what has been written is contradictory. I first became interested in this little known outlaw when I came across a reference to him while doing research on another project. Having been an admirer of author Larry McMurtry and his novel "Lonesome Dove", which as most Oklahombres members are likely to remember features a prominent Indian outlaw named Blue Duck, I became instantly curious when I came across his name. My attempts at determining whether McMurtry got the idea for his outlaw character from accounts of the real Mr. Duck proved fruitless. However, knowing McMurtry's penchant for borrowing from real life events it is entirely possible that this occurred. The first known reference to Blue Duck tells of his family living on Rogers Creek west of present day Oologah. This was during the late 1870's when Blue Duck was in his teens. Some accounts purport Blue Duck as being a white man, but most generally agree that he was Cherokee. Blue Duck's name in Cherokee was Sha–con–gah Kaw–wan–nu. In a story which has been widely written about but is largely thought to be false, Zoe Tilghman, in her 1926 work "Outlaw Days: A True History Of Early Day Oklahoma Characters", refers to Belle Starr, prior to the year 1880, interrupting a poker game in Dodge City, Kansas after her current lover lost $2000.00 in that same game. Belle is alleged to have covered the poker players with her revolver and made off with not only the amount of money in question but the entire stakes on the table. Belle's lover who lost the money in the first place was thought by some writers to have been Blue Duck. Most of the information available today indicates that this is highly unlikely to have occurred. Belle did not meet and marry Sam Starr until 1880 and it is probable that Blue Duck and Belle did not even meet until several years later. The next major event in Blue Duck's life changed it forever. On June 23, 1884, in the Flint District of the Cherokee Nation, Blue Duck and another fellow named William Christie, both drunk, rode up to where a young farmer named Samuel Wyrick was working in his field. Blue Duck emptied his revolver into Wyrick, reloaded, and then fired again at an Indian boy who was working for Wyrick. Duck then rode over to a neighboring farm and shot at but missed the neighbor. Deputy Marshal Frank Cochran arrested Blue Duck and William Christie for the murder of the Wyrick boy. The two outlaws were tried at Fort Smith in Judge Parker's court during January of 1886. Christie was acquitted and Blue Duck was convicted. Judge Parker sentenced Blue Duck to hang from the gallows on July 23, 1886, two years and one month after the crime had been committed. Blue Duck's attorney, Thomas Marcum, appealed to the President of the United States for a commutation of Blue Duck's death sentence to life in prison. While awaiting his date with the hangman, Blue Duck posed for what has become a widely publicized photograph of himself with Belle Starr. Author and historian Glenn Shirley, in "Belle Starr and Her Times", reports that Marcum hoped to call attention to his client's plight by having him photographed with Belle Starr. Marcum allegedly told Belle it would make Blue Duck feel better when he faced the noose. Shirley states that there is no proof that Belle had known Blue Duck prior to having her picture taken with him and she did not see him afterward. In "Outlaws On Horseback", Harry Sinclair Drago wrote that this photograph was taken after Blue Duck's return from prison. This is incorrect. Blue Duck's luck took a turn for the better. His death sentence was commuted and Judge Parker committed him to the Menard Penitentiary at Chester Illinois "for the term and period of his natural life". Drago writes that Blue Duck served less than one year in prison before Belle Starr was able to get him released. This is also incorrect. Archive records from the Illinois Department of Corrections indicate that Blue Duck, inmate number 2486, was admitted to Menard Penitentiary in Chester, Illinois, on October 16, 1886 serving a life sentence for murder. Blue Duck was pardoned on March 24, 1895. It is interesting to note the reason for the pardon was not given and the entry was hand written into the prison record. Blue Duck's prison record does much to dispel some of the myth about the man. It is obvious that the photograph of Blue Duck seated next to Belle Starr was not taken after his release from prison. Belle was killed in 1889, long before he was released. The prison records also make Drago's assertion that Blue Duck was murdered "by some party or parties unknown" sometime during 1887 false. In fact, Drago goes so far to say Blue Duck was probably killed by Sam Starr, jealous over Blue Duck's relationship with Belle. Sam Starr was killed in December of 1886, a few months after Blue Duck was sent to Menard. Shirley writes that Blue Duck developed consumption and was pardoned by President Cleveland on March 20, 1895. Blue Duck was given only one month to live and was released so that he could die among friends. It is generally believed that Blue Duck did indeed die shortly after his release from Menard. Blue Duck's short but violent outlaw career ended like many others. If it had not been for the photograph taken of him and Belle Starr, and the notoriety and wild speculation it caused, he more than likely would have passed through the annals of history as just another docket number in Judge Parker's court records. As luck would have it, the photograph more than likely saved him from death on the gallows and allowed him to live for almost ten more years. That same photograph also fueled a larger than life image of him being one of the many lover's of Belle Starr the Bandit Queen. This was originally taken from: www.angelfire.com/apes/westlegends/Bluford.htm but its not available there anymore...
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frank
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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Posts: 148
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Post by frank on Jul 15, 2008 23:33:21 GMT -5
Charlie you old wicked Italian... if you are following this website (long time no see) could you tell me once again the name of the italian book which had lots of colored photos about Plains Indians? Or if someone else has some book in mind that would hold lots of colored pics I'd be happy to know about it. Thanks.
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frank
Full Member
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Posts: 148
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Post by frank on Jul 15, 2008 23:20:11 GMT -5
Heyyy... I had this Flying By fellow as Miniconjou... so he is Hunkpapa? Ephriam...if youre talking about this same guy can I use your bio about him on my website? And just to make it sure...which Flying By this guy in this pic now is?
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frank
Full Member
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Posts: 148
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Post by frank on Jul 15, 2008 23:14:33 GMT -5
I have also this same HB ranked to be as Miniconjou... if some disagrees please explain... otherwise if someone comes up with good bio on him, I'd be happy to use it on my website too...with credits of course.
Diane, you are talking about Charlie the Italian Stallion right? Is he registered in here or what.... I didnt see him on members list?
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frank
Full Member
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Posts: 148
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Post by frank on Jul 15, 2008 21:54:29 GMT -5
d**n...yes I have... I just havent registered it apparently... well, this is exactly what I wanted to find. Thanks clw.
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frank
Full Member
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Posts: 148
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Post by frank on Jul 15, 2008 16:14:32 GMT -5
Yeap, they are big fellows ;D but still quite gentle...well ermmm..most of the are . Custer had Irish Wolfhounds? d**n...I didnt know that...and whats does that show..well, I need to read more, both books and this messageboard... nice, thanks clw. I know about Irish Wolfhounds history in Ireland and about bringing the breed back to live when it was almost lost around 1860's but I didnt know Custer had them too... if you come up with any other info about them roaming around U.S. between 1800-1900 I'm happy to know about it. I'm still wondering what dog L & C had on their expedition 1804-06 or had they any? And the Indian camp dogs... they had them before whites came right? But where the heck did the dogs come from... part wolves or something? Not likely though but the dogs came from somewhere at the first place...
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frank
Full Member
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Posts: 148
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Post by frank on Jul 15, 2008 15:56:50 GMT -5
I had one version of the PK photo that is already here but this one is bit bigger if it helps any:
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frank
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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Posts: 148
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Post by frank on Jul 15, 2008 15:22:22 GMT -5
Hey, I didn't know under what topic I should post this, so I posted it in here... Has anyone of you ever seen or read anything about Irish Wolfhounds related with old west? I remember that I have sometime seen a painting (about Lewis & Clark was it?) where they had a Irish wolfhound with them on some expedition or something... but I'm not sure, can't remember where it was. Anyway, me and my girlfriend are getting one of those giants and I'm just curious that did the Irish immigrants bring any with them when moving to U.S. or does anyone have any idea about their history in "Old West". Google didnät help me much with this one. If someone also has some good info about camp dogs that Indians had I'd like to know more about them... do you know was there a specific breed or where did they come from originally... thanks guys.
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frank
Full Member
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Posts: 148
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Post by frank on Jul 15, 2008 15:07:07 GMT -5
Hey Diane,
Thanks for your words, the feeling is mutual. I've just been really busy with...well "life"... I'm sorry to hear about your friend. Remember the words of Gandalf who said it so well: "Death is not the end, but yet another path we all must take".
I'll try to be more active here now and I have a lot of work with my own website too which needs tons of updating... good thing about it is that now that we have a new board I have tons of new sources where to get my facts from ;D.
Take care Diane and thanks.
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frank
Full Member
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Posts: 148
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Post by frank on Jul 14, 2008 16:05:46 GMT -5
Thanks man, I made up a small banner to represent www.american-tribes.com. I will put it on to my websites link section. Heres the banner:
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frank
Full Member
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Posts: 148
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Post by frank on Jul 14, 2008 15:10:41 GMT -5
Congratulations on your new board people! Looks awesome and I'm truly honored that you added my websites link on to your links section. Thanks people, I appreciate it more than you can imagine. I hope to have more time in future now so I can take more part to the discussions, I've just been busy as hell with my work, life...everything.... Its good to "see you" all again. Take care all.
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