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Post by tkavanagh on Oct 8, 2013 17:34:13 GMT -5
My demeanor sucks by asking for your source of information? And yours is ok?
Oh, yes: you say you asked one Hopi man many years ago. A good citation, that.
Although I have noted my relation with Hopi here and elsewhere, I will give you a brief synopsis. In early 1980, I was asked by the Chairman of the Hopi Tribal Council, Abbott Sekawaptewa, to be the Director of their Tricentennial Commemoration of the 1680 Pueblo Revolt. During the next 18 months I worked through the Hopi Cultural Center Museum on Second Mesa, an NGO (although Abbott was on the Board of Directors). The other members of the Board, all adult Wuwutsim initiates, were from all the villages except Moencopi; they included several Wimi and Katsinam priests.
One of the primary things they taught me, particularly in relation to things Hopi, and particularly in relation to the so-called "prophecies," was to know the sources upon which claims of esoteric knowledge were based. [This same precaution was hammered by Alphonso Ortiz of Okay Owingay (San Juan Pueblo), my dissertation advisor.] There were, and are, many bogus claims made by non-initiated (and therefore un-informed) people solely for the purpose of relieving naive Bahanam of their cash.
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Post by tkavanagh on Sept 27, 2013 19:39:21 GMT -5
Oh? And you learned this from where? whom?
tk Esimotsoraivo
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Post by tkavanagh on Sept 22, 2013 19:09:59 GMT -5
Once again, you are a little overboard.
"It is the only document ever signed by ( nearly ) all native American tribes in the United States."
It was not "signed" by tribes, but by individuals, many of whom were not at all important, politically, religiously, or whatever.
The expedition was to a 'Heart of Darkness' only in Dixon's mind.
tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Sept 21, 2013 18:46:49 GMT -5
"The Declaration of Allegiance of the American Indians to the United States must rank as one of the five greatest documents in American history, if not in world history..."
You're going a little overboard here. The "Declaration" and the ensuing "Expedition of Citizenship" was a rather silly and superfluous bit of fluffery. They were conducted by some folks, perhaps well-meaning, but woefully stereotyped (all Indians wore war-bonnets and lived in tipis) and ignorant of the particulars of contemporary conditions in the Indian communities they visited.
[As an example: they knew nothing about the then rampant anti-Indian sentiments in New Mexico, particularly the rampant "Water Wars." Thus, when they reached Isleta (the only Pueblo they visited in NM {so much for visiting 'every tribe'}, they were met by a delegation from the nascent All-Pueblo Council, who rejected their initial presentation of American flags, suggesting that they had had better relations "under the flag of Mexico."]
The largest collection of Dixon-Wanamaker materials (original nitrate negatives and vintage prints from 1908, 1909,. and 1913 [over 6000], as well as associated paper documentation) is at the William Hammond Mathers Museum, Indiana University. I was in charge of this collection, 1992-2002, and know the materials intimately. For some of the lesser known Dixon-Wanamaker images, see my _North American Indian Portraits from the Wanamaker Collection _ (1996, New York, Konecky and Konecky).
tk Esimotsoraivo
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Post by tkavanagh on Aug 23, 2013 19:15:22 GMT -5
Don't know about Lakota; Numunu used dogwood.
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Post by tkavanagh on Aug 22, 2013 20:00:49 GMT -5
Well, according to an 1870 letter from Central Superintendent Enoch Hoag to Wichita Agent Jonathan Richards, "Under the Treaty (July 19/66) between the Wichitas and Cherokee Nation provision is made for an annual “General Council” consisting of delegates elected by each nation or tribe loyally residing within the “Indian territory.” [OHS-KA roll 48 "Councils"]. Unfortunately I can't find therein any mention of any Wichita delegates actually going, and only fleeting references to any of the KCA or C&A (a tantalizing mention that Paruacoom of the Quahadas was to be invited, bug of course, he never went.)
tk Esimotsoraivo
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Post by tkavanagh on Aug 22, 2013 17:00:56 GMT -5
From Comanche Political History (p 25) "...although Randolph Marcy considered himself an expert on the Comanches—in 1852, when preparations were under way for an expedition to explore the headwaters of the Red River, Marcy recommended himself for its command because of his “acquaintance with the several bands of Comanches who frequented that country and the knowledge he possessed of their language” [Foreman 1937:xii]—in his voluminous writings (Marcy 1849, 1866; Foreman 1937, 1939) he described only two incidents of direct contact and gave contradictory details in different books. Thus, without additional collaboration from other witnesses, it is difficult to judge the extent of Marcy’s firsthand knowledge of Comanches and the amount of faith to put in any particular statement."
And p 326: "Traveling up the Canadian, they saw plenty of Indian signs but had no encounters until they reached the Cerro Tucumcari in New Mexico. There they found a Comanche village; Marcy said the camp numbered about three hundred persons with twenty-five hundred horses (Marcy 1849:188); Simpson said one hundred lodges and fifteen hundred horses (Simpson 1849). According to Simpson, the chief presented a paper that read: Bent’s Fort, February 26, 1849 The bearer of this paper is one of a delegation of Comanche chiefs who have arrived here to offer the pipe of peace. I have therefore accepted the offer and they promise on their part that their nation shall never again war on the Americans. It is the opinion of the Indians of this country that the Comanche are now serious and it would be well for all white men who may meet the bearer of this paper to treat him in a civil manner, so long as himself and his nation deserve it. It is well known that the Comanche have been warring on us for a long time, and we have, so far, no surety that they will desist, except their own profession. The name of the chief is Issakiep or the Wolf’s Shoulder. [signed] T. Fitzpatrick Indian Agent, Upper Platte [Simpson 1849:15]
As given in Comanche, the name seems to be isa kiipû ‘wolf’s elbow’; it was later spelled Esakeep; ‘wolf’s shoulder’ would be isa kwahipû."
tk Esimotsoraivo
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Post by tkavanagh on Aug 21, 2013 18:16:48 GMT -5
Ya know, if'n you want to learn about the Hopis, this is not the place. Your best bet is to go out there and talk with them. There is a nice motel on Second Mesa, run by Hopis. Nice folks. I spent a weekend there last month, catching up on old friends. Trythe blur corn pancakes. the Noquivi is good too.
tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Aug 11, 2013 17:33:48 GMT -5
Ok, here is the story: The name the 1933 Comanche Field Party transcribed as Piarupsima -- etymologically, /pia/ ‘big’, /tupeheru/ ‘to fall off', /si/ ‘with the foot’, /ma/ completive suffix -- and translated as Big Fall By Tripping, is given by Hämaläinen as 'Chief Big Fat Fall by Tripping.' However, there is no indication in the name of the size of the person. e.g. Fat. Hamalainene's, and with it wutheringeexpectation's, edifice falls flat on it's face.
While we're at it: here is the entirety of the 1933 Field Party's information on 'Big Fall':
Nemaruibitsi Aug 1 Life Cycle: Death: Disposition of Property Piarûpsima, Big Fall by Tripping, had lots of property, particularly horses. When he died, they rounded up his stock; his nephew [ara] rounded them up. He had in mind to kill all the horses [the wild ones]. He was killing horses right and left, when four [dis-interested] men came up and said, “You mustn’t kill all of them. You have children and friends. Give them to your children and maybe to your friends.” So the nephew gave horses to all of his friends and saved some for his children. The uncle had left two wives. Before the nephew began killing their horses, he picked ten of the gentlest, five for each widow. There were no children. If there had been, they would have taken charge.
Howard White Wolf Aug 3 Life Cycle: Death: Disposition of Property In the old days, when a person died, they killed as many horses as they could, and left the rest to the widow. When Piarûpsima died, his widow could get no help in moving the body [Wallace and Hoebel(1952:40)?], so he was buried in the tipi, and when they moved they left the tipi standing. This was an unusual thing. Property went to the widow, and perhaps the children might get a share.
Teneverka Undated Life Cycle: Death: Disposition of Property Piarûpsima had about three thousand horses [Wallace and Hoebel (1952:39) has “1,500 horses at the time of his death.”]; he had no relatives but his wife. He told the tribe that on his death he wanted each of his three hundred arrows to kill one of his best horses. No one should have his best horses. He had three quivers of one hundred arrows each. The rest of the horses should be divided among the tribe. He died and was buried inside a hole in his tipi. The tipi was left standing over him. His wife moved out. The next day the paraibo called for the best marksmen to kill his horses with those three hundred arrows. The remainder were divided among the tribe. Esasûmû, a Kiowa Chief, knew of Piarûpsima’s case. He built his house right over Piarûpsima’s tipi, the place where he was buried. Every night a ghost would come and knock on the windows and doors. Someone would get sick. Esasûmû went to Piarûpsima’s grave. He said he didn’t come to show he was greater, he just liked the place. He said he might talk it over, “Come and tell me.” That night there came a knocking on the door. He said he talked it over with his wife, and he decided to dig up the grave. He did so, put the remains in a casket in the cemetery. They were all right after that. Piarûpsima didn’t like being tramped on.
Note that these give no indication of his social status, e.g., Chief. Pekka made it up.
Note also that ‘Esasûmû’, literally ’one wolf’ in Comanche, is better known in English as ‘Lone Wolf’; in Kiowa, Guipago. There were several Kiowa men with this name, sons, or step-sons of the antecedent. The first Lone Wolf (as far as we know) died in 1879, so this story probably refers to the second, also known as ‘Derby’ Lone Wolf. Both this, and the story of his placement of his house over Big Fall’s grave, imply that these events took place on the Reservation, after 1875. This is extremely unlikely: -no one Comanche could have owned that many horses on the reservation [remember, McKenzie shot that many after Palo Duro]; -there is no one by that or similar name on the Reservation census lists, nor anyone listed as “‘Big Fall’s’ Widow.”
To go from this bit unsubstantiated folk tale to major inferences on Comanche body image is bad historiography at it worst.
tk Esimotsoraivo
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Post by tkavanagh on Jul 25, 2013 11:54:41 GMT -5
Re: Catlin’s Names:
Isakoni given as 'Bow and Quiver' it is 'Returning Wolf' Tawahquena " ‘Mtn of Rocks' " 'Sun Eagle' (i.e., Golden Eagle) Isaroyeh " ‘Carries a Wolf' " 'Wolf Mountain' Kotsokoroko " ‘Hair of Buffalo" " 'Buffalo Necklace’ Isawahtamah " 'Wolf tied w/ Hair' " 'Wolf Teeth' Hahnee " ‘Beaver " ‘ beaver His soo san ches " ‘Little Spaniard’ " Jesus Sanchez
While we’re at it, from wutheringexpectations.blogspot.de/2009/12/how-to-miss-evidence-obese-comanche.html, going on and on about how that unimpeachable [!] source, Comanche Empire, “got things right”:
“Chief A Big Fat Fall by Tripping, it is told, owned fifteen hundred horses, but he was so fat that he could not ride any of them and had to be moved around on a travois. (The Comanche Empire, 259)”
As Pekka should have known from reading Com Pol Hist [he ‘borrowed’ so much else from it], there was no historical person with any name close to this. The only references to this person are from the 1933 Field Party. [I’m on the road, so I won’t try to summarized them here.]
Pekka even got the name wrong: “Big Fat Fall by Tripping.” The name, Piarûpsima, is clear: Big Fall by Tripping. There is no ‘fat’ [‘yuhu’] in it at all.
This is a mythic personage, not in the sense of just fictional, but being held up as an example, and a bad example at that: (his own size is irrelevant) he should not have hoarded, and then attempted to kill, all those horses, but should have given them away while he was alive.
tk Esimotsoraivo
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Post by tkavanagh on Jun 30, 2013 17:42:39 GMT -5
New information: I found the folder with my notes on these pictures. I was wrong and right at the same time. 1) I knew I had seen the above stereo before. It was in my files! I have a photocopy of a print of it from the American Antiquarian Society over in Worchester, MA [about 40 miles away. If I were not about to leave on an extended trip to the West, I would go over to check my notes again.] Its caption: “Comanche, Wichita, Indians who were part of delegation from the wild tribes, who came to the Christian Creek Indians, Indian Territory, Sept 187[x*] 200 miles for good teachers to tell the, about the Great Spirit and others to show them how to make farms and houses.” * One point for me to check is this date: my original notes say ‘1870’, but at some later time, I underlined the 0 and added ‘ ’. [Interesting that Wichitas would be asking for help in learning how to farm!] 2) I have a photocopy of a print [from where, dammit!!] from the same time as the pic of Tab and Cheevers that I posted, captioned ‘U.S. Interpreter & Ambulance, Comanche chief Cheevers & ---- Indian [---] visiting Creeks at Okmulgee, Sept 1875.” 3) The Wanamaker Collection at the Mathers Museum, Indiana University, has a print of Cheevers with the torn caption, “Cheevers, Comanche Indian Chief, ...who came 200 miles for good teachers for his people, and ... for his children ...” 4) There are two images which may be of Cheyennes at the Grand Council. One (I think) is in Fowler’s Hillers book [Fig # ?]; on a related photocopy (not very good) from a print in the Handbook files (from where??) is the comment: “These men and women do not appear among the other Cheyenne portraits taken by Hillers taken the 1875 Grand Council. The hair on three of the women *not* worn Cheyenne style. The men are more likely Kiowa or Comanche. However, the wife of the interpreter, seated at left is Cheyenne. PJP+ 10-19-88.” PJP+ is, of course, Fr. Peter J. Powell. While his reasoning on the women’s hair may be correct, he did not notice the Cheyenne cradle in the background. And I won’t go by his knowledge of non-Cheyenne peoples either. The men are not Comanche, and I don’t think Kiowa. Conclusions: From point 1: Despite the caption, I don’t think there are any Comanches in this picture. But the similarity of captions on 1,2,3 suggest that yes, Comanches, and some others (Wichitas?), went to Okmulgee, but it was in September, 1875, not in May for the Grands Council. Point 4 suggests that some Cheyennes did go to the Council, and were photographed in camp, but not by Hillers. Enough for now. tk Esimotsoraivo
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Post by tkavanagh on Jun 25, 2013 20:23:05 GMT -5
I got a copy yesterday, and although I have other things to do (heading out west next week), I took a quick look thru it.
Whew.
It certainly lives up to one of my earlier comments on the manuscript: "This work would provide an excellent primary source for specialists in Plains Indian cultures; it’s value to a more general audience may be limited for those who approach the subject from this work as an entry."
I've got some initial questions about the organization: he presents reproductions of Mooney's original shield drawings, complete with all of Mooney's generally illegible (to those who first come upon them) notes, and on the facing page has a transcript. But in my initial, admittedly cursory, look I could not link up the one with the other; and there sometimes seemed to be more transcription text than is on the drawing page. Has he linked up several sources? I'll get back on this.
Since it has an index, which the manuscript did not, and since I'm really interested in Comanches (of course), I could now see how he deals with us ( say *us*:Chairman Coffey is now calling me a "captive" and "our Anthro".) Unfortunately on that front, I was mildly disappointed. Fr. Powell persists in translating the name Isatai as 'Wolf Droppings', and in quoting Wolf Robe's comment to George Grinnell, that the Elk Soldiers were "annihilated by Comanches" on Wolf Creek, he adds the editorial "[Kiowas?]" as if there were some question.
More later.
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Post by tkavanagh on Jun 25, 2013 5:45:47 GMT -5
No, I don't know who the Taivo w/ Cheevers and Tabenanaka is (yet). I don't think it's the same guy w/ the Cheyennes: this guy is youngish, the other is older. Also this guy has a Sharps carbine (cocked), the other has a long gun of some kind.
Also: The timing of this is interesting, and thereby somewhat puzzling. If this is indeed May 1875, the Kwahadas with Quanah and Isatai (Quenatosavit) were still on their leisurely way in to Fort Sill. More interestingly, the detainees to Fort Marion had only just been selected. In this regard, I had said, "It is sometimes said [citation?] that when asked to point out the those who were [to go], Cheevers and other Comanche leaders sent only small-time raiders, while protecting the important men" (The Comanches:453). Did Cheevers make that selection at the same time his wives were packing for the trip to Muskogee?
(Also: the assortment of guns the Comanches carry is interesting: a Henry, a Remington Rolling Block, and a Sharps: three different types of ammunition.)
tk Esimotsoraivo
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Post by tkavanagh on Jun 24, 2013 6:41:31 GMT -5
Cheevers (left) and Tabenanaka (right) and wives
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Post by tkavanagh on Jun 24, 2013 6:27:52 GMT -5
Tabananaka is not in this picture; only he and Cheevers (and their wives) went. Their relative Esarosavit did go not on the trip.
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