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Post by tkavanagh on Feb 25, 2017 19:23:38 GMT -5
See my replies above.
The well known Kwahada Comanche headman ("cheif") named Tumotsucut, who died ca 1881, had no surviving children. The less well known Penateka Comanche man, not chief, named Tumotsucut, who died ca 1883,had no surviving children.
Anyone else with a black beard could be nicknamed Tumotsucut. I used to be. Now I am Esimotso.
tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Jan 19, 2017 18:35:22 GMT -5
First things first: I'm Tom, tk, and/or Esimotso (Dr Tom if you want to be formal)
Now to the meat of the matter: Presumably,‘Madzil’ is the Apache name for this person; it is not in the Comanche language.
That said, I know of no Comanche chief named straight-out simply ‘Coyote’.
[Aside: Interestingly, for a character so important in the mythology, there seems to be no specific name for him. The word /isa/ can refer to both Coyote and Wolf, while /tseena/ is both Coyote and Fox. There are a number of other circumlocutions for Coyote (e.g., /oha’anakutu/ ‘has yellow armpits’). ]
The closest to the time period of the Apache story is one of the signers of the 1853 Ft Atkinson Treaty, whose name was given as ‘Warakonalta.’ This was translated as “Poor Coyote Wolf”; but this thoroughly confused. There is nothing that indicates either Coyote or Wolf, no /isa/ or /tseena/. On the other hand , /wura/ [‘wara’- ] is one of several terms for ‘bear’ [although it is also said to be ‘mountain lion’] + /kana/ ‘poor’; e.g. ‘Poor Bear/’
tk Esimotso
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Post by tkavanagh on Jan 17, 2017 18:04:02 GMT -5
"I wonder if there is any confirmation about this event."
Nope.
I would seriously discount almost everything attributed to Lehmann. I say "attributed" as I have found at least one instance of blatant plagiarism-- probably more by his 1927 editor that himself, as he was apparently barely literate. I liken Lehmann to the character Hap Shannessy on the old Red Green TV show (qv).
And anyway, think about it: for this "peace" to have happened, either Lehmann would have had to travel to far SW New Mexico, if not Arizona, or those Chiricahuas had to come east; both highly doubtful.
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Post by tkavanagh on Jan 7, 2017 8:46:00 GMT -5
Seems so.
DeVenney = Sam DeVenney (Comanche), good friend.
tk Esimotso
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Post by tkavanagh on Jan 6, 2017 22:33:10 GMT -5
To further confuse matters: I've been check my files, and my thought process, and have realized that the above pix of "Casper Mowway Tissoyo" is NOT a Lenny and Sawyers. [And, of course, we are now questioning whether it really is Casper (i.e, if the man in the QP pic, who looks a lot like him is Hitovit, is that pipc of Hitohovit as well?)
tk Esimotso
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Post by tkavanagh on Jan 6, 2017 16:38:14 GMT -5
I just got word from a Comanche photo historian in re the above QP pic: seated at left is indeed Soddyteka; the man seated next to him is ... [wait for it} Hitohovit, Black Crow.
Hitohovit was a Nokoni local band leader, about the same age as Quanah. It was to him (and Tuhuyaquahip) that some of the last "out" Comanches (including Asewaynah/Rudolph Fisher) were released in May 1877.
Although he (apparently) is in this photo with Quanah and Permamsu, in May 1884, he did attend an anti-Quanah council at which they "decided to throw Quanah and Permamsu away," and he signed the resulting petition.
Ah, politics.
He died in March 1892.
tk Esimotso
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Post by tkavanagh on Jan 5, 2017 18:45:08 GMT -5
This is a Soule photo [this is Yale's copy #10493321]. I don't know who "Ermoke" was, nor why Ahtolah (Agency spelling) would be among his "bodyguard." Who knows where Haley got his IDs .
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Post by tkavanagh on Jan 5, 2017 18:28:35 GMT -5
I think I would agree that this could be the Naishan Dine Tankoytike, aka White Man. OTOH, Horrors P. Jones is not in the pic.
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Post by tkavanagh on Jan 4, 2017 19:32:20 GMT -5
I'm sorry too. I can't explain it. And to confuse matters further, Tissoyo does not appear on the census lists until 1892, where he is listed as being 21 y.o. [As an adult that year, he signed the Jerome Agreement selling the reservation.]
[I just went and dug out the original Mignon pic from Larry's collection at UT. I hate to say it but I think Larry's IDs on the other men in that pic are questionable also. Specifically, I think (I'm checking my sources in Oklahoma) the "younger man standing at right" is NOT "the eldest son of Isa-Tai" but is Permamsu, aka Comanche Jack, a Yamparika, nephew of Ten Bears [not to be confused with the other 'Comanche Jack' Watchymamsookwat]
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and make a HWAG [Historical Wild Ass Guess]. That is, IF the date, 1885, is correct, this group might represent the leaders of the "pro-leasing" faction of Comanches who had just (Dec 1884)concluded an end run around the Agent and the BIA, and signed a six-year lease with a group of Texas cattlemen. Those leaders included Quanah, Permamsu, and *Soddyteka* [/sari/ 'dog' + /tuka/ 'eater'] who was a much older man. Thus, I would suggest (for the moment) that the seated older man was not Woodahaupith [/wura/ bear' + ohaupitU/ 'yellow'] but was Soddyteka.
But that does not identify the other seated man.
tk Esimotso
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Post by tkavanagh on Jan 3, 2017 8:35:21 GMT -5
"So Isatai has definitely not been confused with White Horse, who is the man in the Soule and Mooney photos..." and the Addison photo.
"...the man in the Lenny and Sawyer's photo is Mowway's son ..." Casper Tissoyo, Yes.
"...the man in the Bliss photo and the family group photo is Isatai..." Quenatosavit.
"... the man in the suit has also been mislabelled and is Mowway's son?" Casper Tossoyo. It would seem so
### "...eldest son of Isa-tai..." This is quite strange. In 1885, Quenatosavit, then age 38, was married to Tovetty, listed as age 18 (more likely 21-ish). They had then only one son, Ponee, later called Heck Eschiti, who was 2. (The 1883 census listed no children for Quenatosavit and Tovetty.) Why would Ponee, an only child, be listed as "eldest"?
"the same photographer (!) who took the picture of Casper Mowway..." i.e., the second, suited, picture. [Note: Casper was born ca 1872.]
tk Esimotso
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Post by tkavanagh on Jan 2, 2017 19:50:34 GMT -5
Wasn't the above photo on the Addison card taken at the same time as the Soule image? (same hair ornaments, same breast plate, etc.) Since Addison worked in the late 1880s-90s, it would seem safe to assume that he copied a Soule image to his own card stock.
tk Esimotso
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Post by tkavanagh on Jan 2, 2017 19:21:09 GMT -5
Hoo boy: so many problems so little time.
I'll tackle the easy one first: According to the working copy of the 1892-93 Kiowa census (Oklahoma Historical Society Microfilm roll KA 4), the Kiowa known as Tsatigh/White Horse,age 50, died in January 1893.['Tsentigh' seems to be Mooney's spelling.]
He is the man with the Winchester carbine, in front of his tipi; photo by Mooney, summer 1892.
The man with the woman's hand on his shoulder is Casper Tissoyo, aka Casper Mowway (son of bear-clawed Mowway); that's why the image is sometimes labeled as "Mowway and Wife". The woman is Kidado, aka Nellie Wuthtakwabitty. Photo by Lenny & Sawyers. {EDIT 2017-01-06 10:30 NO, it's not L&S!!}
re "I can´t tell if Isa-Tai or Isa-Tah has a different meaning in Comanche language." - Isatai has only one meaning in Comanche. -- "White Horse" would be tosa + either puku or teheya - It is the only name even close to that on either Comanche or Kiowa census [update: except a cryptic "Esataha" on the Kiowa list that I have flagged 'cause I can't find its source.]
tk Esimotso
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Post by tkavanagh on Dec 31, 2016 18:52:21 GMT -5
Haa! and Ura: Thank you for your compliments. I am glad you like the book.
As for the ebitekwawap, blue warrior: it was a calculated choice, although you are the first to actually ask about it.
Yes, it *could* be attributed to those other Southern Plains tribes, but on what basis? None that I know of; certainly W.W. Newcomb in his bio of Petri (_German Artist on the Texas Frontier_) didn't give any basis for his attribution. So the question remains, Why would any of them be wearing blue paint?
On the other hand, we do have evidence for Numunuu wearing blue paint: On July 13, 1933, Post Oak Jim commented to the Field Party about returning war parties: "If there was no trouble, no enemy’s lives were taken, they just come home, with no excitement going on. If they have taken lives, they showed some excitement; they might have a Victory Dance. Most of the warriors would be painted with blue paint."
That's good enough for me.
tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Sept 20, 2016 6:47:30 GMT -5
Please pardon the delay, I've been in Ireland.
Unfortunately, there are but few additional points that can be made about Jesus Sanchez. -According to Joe A [personal communication], his Comanche name may have been ‘Seguitotori’ (as given by Wilbur Nye)— /sekwipû/ ‘mud’, with possibly /tohto¿itû/ ‘they exit forcibly’.
-In his dissertation study of Comanche captives, Joaquin Rivaya Martinez could not identify him by place of origin
[From _The Comanches_: During the meeting with the Dragoons, Tabaquena reported that a group of Mexican traders had recently departed; Dodge seized the occasion to argue that Americans would give better goods and better prices and that they should come to Fort Gibson, and possibly even to Washington, for a treaty. That ended the official meeting. Several Comanches, a group of recently arrived Kiowas, and a number of Wichitas and Wacos, returned to Fort Gibson with the troops. Most of the Comanches turned back when one of the women fell sick, but The Spaniard accompanied the dragoons back to Fort Gibson. ... At Fort Gibson the delegation of Plains Indians met in council with representatives of the immigrant tribes, Cherokees, Choctaws, Creeks, and Senecas, as well the local Osages. There was some discussion about the propriety of recognizing The Spaniard as a Comanche representative, and after initial suspicion on all sides, a general consensus emerged. Colonel Dodge and Western Superintendent Francis Armstrong made symbolic presents, including flags and medals, to the visiting westerners, and the eastern Indians gave them white beads and tobacco: “The white beads are an emblem of peace and purity. . . . When you smoke the tobacco of friendship, all evil will go off with the smoke. . . . The beads and tobacco, you must take home to your people . . . tell them, “The beads show the road is clean,” and let them smoke the tobacco in remembrance of us who send it. . . . These white beads are the white path that leads from your door to our door.” (Foreman 1933:134–36)
There is apparently no further mention of Sanchez in the literature.
As an aside, the meeting at Ft Gibson was the first of many formal political interactions between Comanches and the removed Easterners, culminating in the Okmulgee General Councils of Indian Territory, 1871-78.
tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Sept 3, 2016 18:12:40 GMT -5
fernando: Please remember that Ferenbach did little or no original research for his book; it is, at best, merely a reworking of Rupert Richardson’s 1933 _Comanche Barrier to South Plains Settlement_ .
That said, the basic problem with Richardson (and thus Ferenbach), as well as Wallace and Hoebel (1952) and later Morris Foster (1991) is that they provide no data, no way to evaluate their positions. As I said in my book (p. 14-15):
“these are generalizations without particulars. Both Richardson and Foster claimed that the “chiefs” who signed treaties had no influence or authority beyond a specific diplomatic context, but they gave no supporting examples; without such references, their generalizations remain as untested hypotheses. At the same time, given that the historical documents often include specific details about the Comanche individuals involved in interactions, and that sets of documents show the continuities of specific individuals across time (table 1.2), the conclusions of Richardson and Foster raise the questions, in Foster’s terms, How are those individuals and their actions to be evaluated? Were they indeed little more than intermediaries with no political roles beyond the immediate interaction or were they political leaders whose influence extended across time and space? It would seem that if the former hypothesis were correct, then there should be a great many more such individuals named in the historical record than the relatively few we find, with the extreme case being that there should have been be a new “spokesman” for each incident in the 170 years of pre-reservation interaction. That there was not suggests some sort of selection process at work. Since there is no evidence that Euroamericans were doing the selecting, it must have been done by Comanches. At the same time, there is evidence from both ends of pre-reservation Comanche history, from the 1780s and from the 1870s, that many Comanche “spokesmen” were also political leaders both of local and of larger sociopolitical groups. Finally, in both Richardson’s and Foster’s approach there are unanswered questions. Richardson noted that “a treaty would be made . . . [with] a certain great chief” (1933:23); similarly, Foster argued that “some Comanche leaders were able to acquire a degree of authority that approximated control over a division” (1991:70). The questions are, first, the particulars: Which “great chief”? Which “Comanche leaders”? What “authority”? Are Richardson’s and Foster’s conclusions based on the generalization of historical materials or on theoretical preconceptions?"
Since they do not provide data, it must be conceded that those conclusions are based on preconceptions
Indeed, one of the purposes I had in writing the book was to provide the data upon which to base generalizations about Comanche “chiefs.” [One of the criticisms of the book was that it was *too* detailed in this regard.]
Again, that said: Yes, there were Comanche "chiefs"; just look at Ten Bears (Attocknie 2016).
tk Esimotso
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