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Post by gregor on Aug 11, 2010 15:15:46 GMT -5
Greetings from Germany! On and off german friends ask me where I get my information about the Lakota people and what are my sources. In addition to contemporary publications by Utley, Larson, Ostler, Bray, Hyde and many others, I use particular sources, such as free books and www.archive.org.On archive.org we find for example scans of many census rolls of all Lakota / Sioux reservations. For example Crow Creek Census (1886 – 1939), Pine Ridge Census (1886 – 1943), Rosebud census (1886 – 1939), Cheyenne River Census (1886 – 1942) and Standing Rock Census (1885 – 1934). See here for example : www.archive.org/details/indiancensusroll362unit or www.archive.org/details/indiancensusroll547unitOn archive.org you will also find a whole library of free historic books, just type “Sioux” or “Dakota” etc. into the searchfield and you get among others (some links included): Allison, Edwin Henry (1891) The Surrender of Sitting Bull: Being a Full and Complete History of the Negotiations Conducted ... www.archive.org/details/surrendersittin00alligoogBolton, Herbert Eugene (1890ies?) New light on Manuel Lisa and the Spanish fur trade - Densmore, Frances (1918) Teton Sioux music (Volume no. 61) De Barthe, Joseph (1894) The life and adventures of Frank Grouard : chief of scouts, U. S. A. Fechet, Edmond J (1891) The true story of the death of Sitting Bull, great Sioux medicine man Kingsbury, David Lansing (1889) Sully's expedition against the Sioux in 1864 – Luttig, John C., (1920) Journal of a fur-trading expedition on the upper Missouri 1812-1813 Mooney, James (1896) The Ghost-dance Religion and the Sioux Outbreak of 1890 www.archive.org/details/ghostdancerelig00moongoogParkman, Francis (1849) Francis Parkman's The Oregon Trail – Poole, Dewitt Clinton (1881) Among the Sioux of Dakota: Eighteen Months Experience as an Indian Agent www.archive.org/details/amongsiouxdakot00poolgoogTextor, Lucy Elizabeth (1896) Official Relations Between the United States and the Sioux Indians www.archive.org/details/officialrelatio00textgoogWalker, Judson Elliott (1881) Campaigns of General Custer in the North-west, and the final surrender of Sitting Bull www.archive.org/details/campaignsgenera00walkgoogWarren, Gouverneur Kemble (1875) Preliminary report of explorations in Nebraska and Dakota, in the years 1855-'56-'57 www.archive.org/details/preliminaryrepo02warrgoogWelsh, Herbert (1883) Report of a visit to the great Sioux reserve, Dakota, made during the months of May and June, 1883, in behalf of the Indian rights associations – United States. BIA (1875) Report of the Commission appointed to treat with the Sioux Indians for the relinquishment of the Black Hills and of course most works of Stanley Vestal and Doane Robinson. With regard of Stanley Vestal: his complete research correspondence and sources are published on this webside of the Oklahoma University: digital.libraries.ou.edu/whc/nam/collection.asp?cID=1224&sID=7Last, but not least – another good source is the American Museum of Natural History and the collection of Anthropological Papers. Here we find works of Clark Wissler and J.R. Walker; see here digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/handle/2246/6//simple-search?query=dakota&submit=Search+&pubs=antOf course we have to judge each book or report carefully. But each book or report and each fact or assertion (right or wrong) is a piece to complete the jigsaw puzzle. So, that’s all for now. Please share other free of charge (but priceless) sources. Yours Gregor ;D
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Post by gregor on May 16, 2010 13:29:45 GMT -5
Hi Dietmar, maybe this is Buffalo Hump, but according to Joe Starita's "The Dull Knife of Pine Ridge" (and the pictures in this book) this also could be George Dull Knife (1875 - 1955 ). George was the youngest son and last child of Dull Knife (ca. 1810 - 1883) and his wife Short One. George lived on Pine Ridge in the Yellow Bear camp with the Poor Bear family. In Starita's book is only little information on Buffalo Hump, although Dull Knife family members worked with Starita. Did Buffalo Hump also live on Pine Ridge or did he live on the Northern Cheyenne Reservation?
See you soon!
Gregor
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Post by gregor on May 6, 2010 15:11:45 GMT -5
Hi ev'rybody, I just came across this photo series and stopped at the photo "Shoshone sundancers - circa 1910" (3 men blowing eaglebone pipes / middle of the page). They look very Lakota-like to me. I think they are Oglala and/or Brulé. The man on the right side is Painted Horse (Oglala) or Follows-the-women (Brulé). I think its a Bell or O'neil photo from around 1910. I'm pretty sure that I have some other pix of this series. I have to look at my archive. If I didn't know it better, i would say the man in the middle is Kicking Bear (but he died in 1904). The man on the left side looks familiar to me, but I can't remember a name. Any suggestions? But Shoshone? Never!
Greetings from Germany
Gregor
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Post by gregor on Jan 16, 2010 11:35:43 GMT -5
I would be interested in clarifying the issue that I raised (Nov 6 2009) about Standing Holy's children. According to my archive, which is based on literature, census lists and correspondence with Ernie LaPointe Standing Holy had the following children: Standing Holy (1876-1927) & Urban Spotted Horse (1873 - 1919): - Angeline Spotted Horse (1903-1959) - Robert Spotted Horse (1905 - ?) - Sarah Spotted Horse (1907 - 2000) - Eli Spotted Horse (1909 - ?) - Isaac Spotted Horse (1911 - ?) and there were some more children (Zona, Josephine,Rufus, Thomas) who still lived only some days. There were hard times back then. Only Angeline and Sarah SH lived to adulthood. Angeline married twice, she had several children. Angeline & Allison Little Spotted Horse (1900 - 1990): - Margret Little Spotted Horse (1930-1950) - Lydia Little Spotted Horse-Red Paint (1932- 2009) - Marlene Little Spotted Horse-Anderson (*1935) - Eli Little Spotted Horse (1939-1991) - Ethel Little Spotted Horse-Bates (*1937) Angeline & Claude LaPointe (1898 - 1965): - Ernie LaPointe (*1948) As we can see Ernie is the only living great-grandson of Sitting Bull in direct bloodline. The Standing Rock Administration shall have documented a SB Family Pedigree. But this is still not accessible. Too bad! I would like to see it one day. Greetings from Germany Gregor
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Post by gregor on Jan 15, 2010 15:00:32 GMT -5
Are you sure 2 and 3 aren't earlier? If that book was published in 1881 with the illustrations, then they must have been taken shortly after surrender - around the time of the Low Dog/Crow King/early Gall series. The other one - the Barry studio shot where he's dressed in a waistcoast decorated with rings and chains/strings of beads - that looks like the kind of studio shot Barry was producing in the 1885-8. I'm no longer convinced the man in the Haynes' photo is Louis. The subject of the other photo I posted does look similar to the blow up from the 1905 picture you posted. Yes, you are right! This photographs must have been shot in 1881, shortly after the surrender. I had them in my archive as 1888 Barry pix. But like you, I'm convinced the captions are wrong.
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Post by gregor on Jan 15, 2010 14:54:03 GMT -5
And one more picture of John Sitting Bull from the 1940ies (?) I contacted Ernie LaPointe regarding this image. He says that this man isn't John Sitting Bull. I have to accept it! There was a great likeness! - Gregor
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Post by gregor on Jan 12, 2010 16:21:52 GMT -5
Yeah, the montage and the material I used was not that good. But I have some better pix and I had some long looks at the different photographs. About the Haynes image I'm not so sure - as I said before. But take a look at the mouth and eyes section of the other photographs. And we have to consider the pics cover a period of 40 years. I'm virtually certain (98%) that the pix show the same man and his name is John Sitting Bull.
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Post by gregor on Jan 12, 2010 16:09:11 GMT -5
Hi Dietmar,
yes, I agree "Willie, deaf & dumb" could be an error. Someone read "Young Sitting Bull" on the photograph and concluded it was John Sitting Bull / Deaf & Dumb or Deefy. Unless William had also hearing problems, what we don't know.
CU
Gregor
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Post by gregor on Jan 12, 2010 15:58:41 GMT -5
....and an addition regarding William Sitting Bull, John Sitting Bulls halfbrother. William was one of the twins born in 1876. His parents were Four Robes an Sitting Bull. He died on December 8, 1909. A year before he had written to the Standing Rock Agent, asking for permission to return to Grand River. The permission was refused. William Sitting Bull, 1905 William SB (blow-up) This could be William Sitting Bull. But who knows? Maybe we should open a "Sitting Bull family" thread?
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Post by gregor on Jan 12, 2010 15:34:23 GMT -5
Here I assembled some Louis/John Sitting Bull photographs. Take a closer look to the mouth section: 1 = Haynes, Frank J. Photo taken at Ft. Yates 1881. Is it really Louis/John? I don't know. I'm torn between the two possibilities. 2 & 3 = Barry, ca. 1888 „Louie Sitting Bull“, also distributed by Goff and Haynes. This is definitely Louis (later John) Sitting Bull. 4 = Scott, ca. 1880ies 5 = Barry, 1926, John Sitting Bull 6 = unknown, 1950ies, John Sitting Bull David F. Barry knew Sitting Bull and other family members over a long period. And John Sitting Bull over 40 years! I think, he knew who Louis / John was. As to the name change: It was a good Lakota custom to honor a person by adopting his name. I guess SBs stepson Refuses Them wanted to honor Louis Legaré by taking his name in the first years after the surrender. Louis was one of a few whites who was generous to the starving Lakotas. As far as I know the name "John SB" first turned up after Sitting Bulls death in December 1890. But I have no idea why he choose John as his new name. And one more picture of John Sitting Bull from the 1940ies (?)
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Post by gregor on Jan 12, 2010 15:02:11 GMT -5
Hi Dietmar, hi grahemew, I'm not so sure about the guy in grahemew's post "John/Young Sitting Bull". I believe the image was sold at Cowan's. On front of the photograph we have the caption "Young Sitting Bull, Sioux Chief". On the back there was allegedly a handwritten notation " Willie, deaf & dumb". I dont think, that this man is John Sitting Bull. I asked Ernie LaPointe regarding this photo and he confirmed that it wasn't John. More likely it is William Sitting Bull. Regarding John Sitting Bull, look at my post on the Sans Arc / Spotted Eagle thread.
CU Gregor
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Post by gregor on Jan 9, 2010 7:29:59 GMT -5
I thought the reason it was assumed to be him was that he looks like a man featured in a Barry photo from the mid 80s (I think); looking at it again, I think it's an older man in the Haynes photo. By the way, I've also seen this image labelled as Little Assiniboin! Anyhow, for comparison with the tall Indian at the back, here's John Sans Arc, 1884: Yes, i have also seen this photgraph labelled as "Little Assiniboin". I think it was the Denver Library. I'm still puzzeld over Louis Sitting Bull. Some days ago I came across "Campaigns of General Custer in the North-west" by Judson Elliot Walker (published in fall 1881 in New York). Walker writes on page 104: "Upon the opposite page appears a life likeness of Louis, a son of Chief Sitting Bull...and...we are permitted to take a facsimile of his signature, which was secured from Louis while he was en route from fort Buford to Standing Rock, early last spring, on the steamer "General Terry". Is this Louis Sitting Bulls wife Zuzela? (Perhaps Zuzela is a corruption of Zuzeca. According to Buechels dictionary zuzeca means "snake", but also the blue cardinal flower is named zuzeca) You find Walker's book here: www.archive.org/details/campaignsgenera00walkgoogBut Sitting Bull travelled on the steamer "Sherman", in July. Does that mean, that Louis surrendered earlier. Perhaps with Gall? How reliable is Walker? Has anybody an idea on this? -Gregor
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Post by gregor on Jan 4, 2010 14:08:00 GMT -5
gregor, gregor, could you please post one of the 3 images of the five surrendered Sioux chiefs again please, it is one of ones that show Gall, Rain-in-the- Face, Hump, Low Dog and Spotted Antelope, I mean the rather rare one that shows a white child and some white women in it. I ask this for 2 reasons. One when I logged on yesterday all the images came up fine, but today no matter what I do two of the three images open only partially. My second reason is a few years back when this particular image appeared on another board, posted by graham I think, I back then asked if anybody could make a better scan of it as it was both too small, and of such low resolution that it was impossible to enlarge. Now the one thing I've noticed on this wonderful board is that there are several people who are very good at this, and I was hoping maybe one of them could help me by doing a larger scan of the image. I'm sorry to bother you in this way, Low Dog. Hi Low Dog, here the image again I would like to serve you with a better resolution. But unfortunately, this is the best I have. Maybe someone has a better version. By the way, you didn't bother me - it's my pleasure to diskuss here Lakota topics. CU Gregor
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Post by gregor on Jan 1, 2010 13:51:35 GMT -5
Grahame was the first who assumed that Spotted Eagle was standing in the back row in the group photo by Haynes in 1881. Today I found at ebay some good scans of the photo. Interestingly we can see at on the back that indeed Spotted Eagle was indentified by Haynes. Does anyone see Hump in the picture though? Hi Folks, I would like to resume the discussion regarding Louis Sitting Bull in the known Haynes photo “Five noted chiefs”. Until recently I also thought that it shows Louis SB in the backrow. Now I'm not so sure. I have once again looked at the data regardind Sitting Bull's surrender. On July 19, 1881 surrender at Ft Buford. On July 29, 1881 the Hunkpapa board the General Sherman to be transferred to Fort Yates. On July 30 or August 1, intermediate stop at Mandan / Bismarck. On August 2, 1881 the General Sherman arrives at Standing Rock / Fort Yates. Some days later Goff takes the first known Photograph of Sitting Bull. Now to the Haynes photo with “Louis Sitting Bull”. The photo is one of a series of photos. Known to me are the 5 following photos. Three photos with the 5 “Noted Sioux Indian chiefs” and two “landscape” photos. The landscape photos show a camp circle and a gathering of Lakota. The last photo reminds me strongly of a give-away-celebration. It is well known, that around 1881 the U.S. government attempted to suppress the annual sun dances. But the Lakotas were so resourceful to exploit the 4th of July as a combined dance- and give-away-celebration. This has been repeatedly documented for Pine Ridge and other reservations. And I could imagine that this was also the case at Standing Rock. This “landscape” photo reminds me very firmly of a give-away-celebration. The two “landscape- pictures” carry the caption "Ft Yates, Indian prisoner camp, July 81". The assumption that this photo shows a give-away-feast (on July 4, 1881) and that the other photos were shot on the same day, shatters the further assumption that it might be Louis Sitting Bull (see data above). In contemporary newspaper articles and documents it is said, that Sitting Bull surrendered with his family, and the step-sons are mentioned. Louis could then not have been photographed in July at Standing Rock / Fort Yates. Unless he had surrendered previously, for example with Gall or Rain-in-the-face. However, of this is nothing known to me. If we look at the person "Louis SB" in the Haynes photo, then he seems to have relatively short hair. In the picture of Louis that comes closest to the Haynes Photo (a Barry photo of 1884?), Louis clearly has longer hair, which is divided on the crown. And there is one more conspicuous thing. In all known photographs of the Sitting Bull family, no one is posing with a "German-Silver-Cross", while other items are shown repeatedly. I now tend to believe that Louis Sitting Bull is not shown in the photo. What is your opinion on this matter?
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Post by gregor on Dec 6, 2009 17:11:08 GMT -5
Regarding the Brigham Young University Photo, there seems to be a mistake in the caption. The rider on the right side of Grouard is in my opinion the Brulé High Hawk. Or any other ideas?
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