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Post by hreinn on May 2, 2012 14:23:29 GMT -5
It works fine if you copy and paste the link.
Thanks for writing about this remarkable woman Iron Teeth. I look forward to read more about here family.
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Apr 29, 2012 12:06:27 GMT -5
Regarding the names Big Woman and Stone Woman: The writing of the following names are very similar, I think too similar: Tankawin-Big Woman Tankan Win-Stone Woman Tanka sna Win- Rattling Stone Woman] From the writings of the words/names: a) Tankawin (Tȟáŋka wiŋ) = Big Woman b) Tunkanawin (Tĥuŋkáŋ wiŋ) = Stone Woman I understood that there is a small difference in speaking of the first part (Tan vs. Tun) Similar to the difference in pronouncing the words track vs. truck. Where there is a small variation of opening of the mouth to say the "a" vs. "u" sounds. So Tunkanawin (Tĥuŋkáŋ wiŋ) seems to be a correct writing of the name Stone Woman. It is appropriate to notice that the word tunkan (tĥuŋkáŋ) has not exactly the same meaning as the word inyan (íŋyaŋ). Although both can be translated as stone or rock. Tunkan (tĥuŋkáŋ) is according to New Lakota Dictionary = rock (as spiritual entity). From J.R. Walker's book Lakota Belief and Ritual, Bison Books (1991) page 112: "Tunkan is the spirit which fell from the sky. It is a stone. It knows all things which are secret. It can tell where things are when they are lost or stolen. " Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Apr 29, 2012 11:49:13 GMT -5
Yes, the definitions of the words in replies #35 & #48 came from the New Lakota Dictionary published by Lakota Language Consortium.
Regarding whether the name of Rattle Blanket Woman would have been Tanka sna Win or Ta-sina hlala win (Taŋ šină ĥláĥla wiŋ):
1. The "Ta-sina hlala win" version of the name Rattle Blanket Woman is from Kingsley Bray's text as quoted in reference [4] in reply #48. 2. I don't know where Kingsley Bray got it from. 3. From The New Lakota Dictionary: a) šna (sna) = regularly, often. b) ĥláĥla (hlala) = a rattle or to rattle
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Apr 29, 2012 10:48:11 GMT -5
Of course, Joseph N. Nicollet's rich information from 1839 is invaluable.
BUT. Nicollet's information about leaders of 2 out of 3 Oglala divisions are not in coherence to other information.
a) Mad Dog was the leader of Ku-Inyan according to Nicollet. But not Bull Bear as most often considered. For example we always refer to Bear people but not Dog people. The feud was between Bull Bear and Smoke but not Mad Dog and Smoke. As I understand the matter, Bull Bear would have been oldest of the brothers/"brothers" Bull Bear, Iron Hatchet, Mad Dog and Self-Met. So most likely the head of Ku-Inyan.
b) Yellow Eagle was the leader of Onkp'hatinas (Hunkpatilla) according to Nicollet. But not Smoke nor Old Man Afraid of His Horse as most often considered.
Is this an inaccuracy on Nicollet's behalf ? Or due to the fluidity of leadership among the Lakhota ? Or due unfortunate happening that the "expected" chiefs of Hunkpatilla and Ku-Inyan were not in camp when Nicollet was among the Oglala (for example on hunting) ?
Can we rely on Nicollet's information that White Earrings was the leader of Oyurpe (Oyuhpe) ?
What does the name Self-Met (Iye itcila) mean ? Is there any additional information available for this man ?
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Apr 29, 2012 10:20:39 GMT -5
One thought:
Was Rattle Iron a sister/"sister" to one of Smoke's wives ?
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Apr 27, 2012 16:15:40 GMT -5
OK. Good to have this confirmed. This is the third person we have a name for of those who were killed in this fight in 1841.
Out of 8 who were killed in this most unfortunate and horrendous fight between these close relatives we have the following names: 1. Bull Bear 2. Mad Dog 3. Yellow Lodge (Red Cloud's brother according to Hyde in Red Cloud's Folk)
It would be good to know the names and family background of the other 5 persons who were killed. I am sure that modern Lakhota people know the names of them all. At least the families of those who were killed in this fight know the name of their beloved family member.
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Apr 27, 2012 13:57:01 GMT -5
White Swan had only four sons: Iron Hatchet, Crazy Dog, Bull Bear, and Self-Met (Iye itcila). Was this Crazy Dog the same person as Mad Dog who Joseph N. Nicollet said was the head of Ku-Inyan Oglala in 1839 ? Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Apr 22, 2012 17:00:24 GMT -5
Regarding who were parents of Walks With White: From this thread, we have several sources which say Walks With White's father was Smoke (Smoke 1, Old Smoke). We have one source which say Walks With White's mother was Rattling Iron who was Smoke's wife. according to my family history and supposed lineage, Chief Smoke married Rattling Iron who had a daughter "Walks with White", my Maternal great-great-great grandmother. But on the opposite we have Wendell Smoke who has listed Smoke's wives and children. Where there is no mention of Rattling Iron nor Walks With White. Smoke had 5 wives & 10 children, "1 daughter & 9 sons";
Smoke had Ulala aka Spotted horse woman from his 1st wife Looking cloud woman; she was from the Minneconju!
Smoke had Man afraid of his horses I & Smoke II from his 2nd wife Comes out slow woman; she was from the Oglala!
Smoke had Big mouth & Blue horse from his 3rd wife Burnt her woman; she was from the Sicangu!
Smoke had Amercan horse I & Woman dress from his 4th wife Yellow haired woman; she was from the Southern Cheyenne Tribe!
Smoke had No neck from his 5th wife Brown eyes woman; she was from the Hunkpapa!
Smoke had 2 nephews that he adopted as sons, Red cloud in 1825 & Bull bear III in 1841! Walks With White had 4 other siblings: According to No Neck, he was the son of Old Smoke and Brown Eyes. He also stated that his ½ brother Woman Dress’s mother was Burnt her. No Neck states in our records that Thick Bread, American Horse, Charging Bear, Walks With White and Walks With Cow were all full brothers and sisters. Himself as well as Woman Dress, Spotted Bear and Breath Wind (Ulala?) were considered Half brothers and sisters. By picking out the name Thick Bread, and noticing we have a reference to him from another source: But further in the history it seems from checking the government records at Pine Ridge (by my family's geneologist), Thick Bread's parents were listed as Bear's Foot and Ratteling Iron. And also noticing this: There was also some mention of Old Smoke possibly being brothers with Bear’s Foot and Pacer. This seems to be old family speculation. And with the restriction that Wendell Smoke has the full list of Smoke's wives and children. Then we have this possibility: The couple Bear's Foot + Rattling Iron had 5 children: 1. Walks With White (aka. Pretty Woman & Good Woman) 2. Walks With Cow 3. American Horse 4. Thick Bread 5. Charging Bear As Smoke and Bear's Foot (and Pacer) could have been "brothers" in the wide Lakhota terminology. Therefore Smoke would have been called "father" to Walks With White and her siblings in the wide Lakhota terminology. Can we find out the family background of Bear's Foot and Pacer ? And find out how Bear's Foot and Pacer were related to Smoke ? Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Apr 21, 2012 8:54:44 GMT -5
Great post Masleca. It's a gift to be able to make a use of one's dreams and visions. One should always take a notice of them, especially if you sense a wanáği and not to mention wakĥáŋ akíčhita. We are obviously "on the same line" ! Besides also picking up the possible yellow connection to Zohy. I also noticed the name Zohy Man Afraid of His Horse, after re-reading Wendell Smoke's posts after posting reply #153. Following that, I wondered if the male name Zohy could be related to the name Yellow Eagle. Because there exists references to Yellow Eagle as a brother to Old Man Afraid of His Horse. But that connection between Zohy and yellow something, is too far reached. OK. I see you have done your research by checking the french meaning of Zohy and agree with you that most likely it was Alex Sr. who was most influential in given Zohy her name. But perhaps the name Zohy was chosen because it would fit in the languages/cultures of both parents. That approach to choose a name for a child is well known in my society nowadays. The silence of your grandmother Lena is a sign (not "proof", there have to be other signs also) of a traumatic experience in childhood. It is no wonder, because she lost her mother and was sent away to a school far away from any loving relative(s) except her siblings. And who knows what happened in the school. It has recently surfaced in my society a bad treatment of children in schools where the children were far away from their home. I am sure that Alex Sr. thought it would be better for Zohy to grow up among the whites. But he ignored or was not aware of the importance for the child to associate with both parents. And preferably to grow up among caring relatives. It is well known if children suffer an immense negative emotional experience. For example a loss of a parent, lack of love, physical violence, sexual abuse etc.. It affects the children so much that they bury the experience deep inside and keep it there locked. But unfortunately the effects comes unintentionally on the surface in adult years. The adult person is either much withdrawn or much outgoing. This is called personality disorder in English and shows up in many different ways with different signs. Depending on the person. This is not to be confused with a lunacy or that kind of things. This is just such a traumatic experience for the children, that it effects the person immensely. Did Walks With White, Walks With Cow, Alex. Jr. (and later Zohy & Lena) grow up/live as adults among Hunkpatilla thiyóšpaye (band) ? If they did, do you know if they followed Old Man Afraid of His Horse when he split from Hunkpatilla and formed Payabya ? If not, do you know to which thiyóšpaye they belonged to ? Do you know if or how Old Man Afraid of His Horse was related to Yellow Eagle ? Do you know the family background of the several Yellow Eagles within the Hunkpatilla thiyóšpaye ? or Hard to Hit ? or Buffalo Tongue ? or Iron Whiteman ? Are there any statements regarding Standing Bull/Standing Buffalo in your genealogy information ? Would you like to say something about Ed Amioette's account on when the Buffalo Soldiers came to Wounded Knee ? Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Apr 20, 2012 15:37:36 GMT -5
The 2 grandmothers of Crazy Horse 3 (b.1840, d.1877) were:
a) on the father side = Red Kettle (the name of her parents are yet unknown). b) on the mother side = White Cow Woman (aka Iron Cane) (her parents were Body Parts and Looking Walker Woman).
Hopefully this clarifies matters.
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Apr 19, 2012 17:29:05 GMT -5
Masleca, here is one thought.
If the name Zohy means yellow something, as mentioned in above in reply #152 as one possibility for a translation of the name Zohy. Then perhaps there is a link between Zohy and Yellow Haired Woman. Perhaps Yellow Haired Woman was Zohy's maternal grandmother.
According to information from Wendell Smoke in reply #77: Yellow Haired Woman was one of Smoke's wives. She was a Southern Cheyenne woman. She was a mother to American Horse and Woman's Dress.
Perhaps Yellow Haired Woman had more children than Wendell Smoke listed. Perhaps Yellow Haired Woman was also mother to Thick Bread, Charging Bear, Walks With White and Walks With Cow. That would mean that Yellow Haired Woman was a maternal grandmother to Zohy.
So Zohy was perhaps given her name in honour of her Cheyenne grandmother Yellow Haired Woman. That would explain why LaDeane Miller had in his note that Zohy was surprisingly born in Cheyenne nation, as mentioned in reply #144.
That would fit nicely to yours genealogy information. Except for a small difference in whether American Horse and Woman's Dress were half brothers or full brothers. Half brothers according to No Neck. Full brothers according to Wendell Smoke.
One way to check this out would be to contact modern Cheyenne people and see if there still exists a memory of Yellow Haired Woman and her relatives.
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Apr 19, 2012 15:42:50 GMT -5
Hello Masleca ! Thanks for your reply. I am mutually pleased to converse with you. Like all Lakhota family stories, your family story is a precious gem. It will take some time to digest the wealth of information in your last post. It must have been hard for Walks With White when her 3 years old daughter was kidnapped. It is not difficult to imagine that it could have been a factor in her early death, for example due to a suppression of her immune system in her sorrow. It also must have been difficult for the children, Lena, Delma, Emory and Albert, to be sent far away after their mother‘s death. Hopefully they met more human condition at Indian school in Chillocco than Lakhota children met at Carlisle school. It shows how close these people and events are to us today, when you said that your grandmother Lena was the youngest daughter of Zohy. If you have not already seen it, then here is some information about Alex LaBoeuf (I assume Junior) from Eli S. Ricker‘s interviews [1]: Alex. La Buff (Ricker‘s spelling) worked for Bartlett in Bartlett‘s store at Wounded Knee. He was described as truthful, honest and dependable. "He helped gather & bury the dead & [at] W.K. & knows all abt. it". [1] Charley Allen said that Alex lived at Allen S.D. and that Alex had a single eye (one eye). Following are the closest words I could find in the "New Lakota Dictionary" which could get close to the name Zohy: zuyá = warrior, war party, war zuzéča = snake ziyá = in a yellow color, in yellow condition ziyÁ = to dye or paint something yellow, to tan something Do you know what Zohy means ? I hope you will write more later about your family stories. Hreinn [Voices of the American West, Volume 2, The Settler and Soldier Interviews of Eli S. Ricker, 1903-1919, edited by R.E. Jensen, University of Nebraska Press (2005) pages 59-60.]
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Post by hreinn on Apr 16, 2012 17:05:26 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply Deb. You have perhaps seen this. Part of it is the similar to what you wrote above. LaDeane Miller has in his book Families of Pine Ridge some information about Walks With White and her children, based on Pine Ridge records from 1886 to 1899. According to LaDeane Miller, Walks With White (b.1840) married LeBuff and together they had at least 1 boy + 1 girl. The girl's name was Zona LeBuff (b.1858 in Cheyenne nation !, d.≥1900). She married Stephen Amioette. Together Zona LeBuff and Stephen Amioette had 11 children, among them was Edward Amioette (b.1879) who married Delia Rooks (b.1886). This is perhaps Ed Amioette who Masleca mentioned in reply #140. The boy's name was Alexander LeBuff (b.1860, d.1935). In 1893, he married Sarah Marshall (b.1857). LaDeane has information about Zona LeBuff, Alexander LeBuff and Rhonda LeBuff. LaDeane has an information about many Conroy's There is no information about Walks With Cow in LaDeane Miller's book. I wonder how exactly Ed Amioette was related to No Neck. Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Apr 15, 2012 13:24:42 GMT -5
Masleca, regarding your post above I would like to ask you some questions:
Did the sisters Walks With White and Walks With Cow have the same mother and father ? Do you know the name(s) of their mother(s) or their band background ? Do you know the last name of Alex senior ? Do you know when Zohy and Alex junior were born ? Do you know when Walks With White died ? Did the information from No Neck and Ed Amiotte include how No Neck and Old Man Afraid of His Horse were related to Smoke ? Did the information from No Neck and Ed Amiotte include any names of other relatives of Smoke (his siblings, parents, grandparents) ? Do you know further details of how Zohy would have been related to the Conroy family ?
Debstar76, do you have any answers/comments regarding these questions ?
Kind regards, Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Apr 9, 2012 18:55:27 GMT -5
The name Tunkanawin from Victoria Conroy's letter [1] is most likely based on these words [2]: tĥuŋkáŋ = rock or stone wiŋ = a female name ending and represents the Woman part of the name Therefore Tunkanawin means Rock Woman or Stone Woman. But does not mean Rattle Stone Woman like Richard Hardorff has it [3]. Because it is missing the word ĥláĥla (hlahla) which means a rattle or to rattle [2]. Like in the name of Crazy Horse's 3 mother Rattle Blanket Woman = Ta-sina hlala win [4] = Taŋ šină ĥláĥla wiŋ. Where [2]: Taŋ = well, properly, carefully, nicely, throughly šină = blanket (usage = refering to a blanket worn around the body or used for covering ĥláĥla = a rattle or to rattle wiŋ = a female name ending and represents the Woman part of the name Most likely Tunkanawin does not mean Big Woman, because then we would expect to see the words [2]: tháŋka = big thaŋkíŋyaŋ = big thaŋktĥáŋka = big Most likely Tunkanawin does not mean Pretty Feather Woman, because then we would expect to see the words [2]: wašté = to be pretty waštéla = to be pretty oówaŋyaŋg wašté = to be pretty čhó = to be pretty wíŋyaŋ wašté = to be pretty (only refering to a woman) hópA = to be very pretty wíyakA = feather súŋ = large bird feathers from the wing siŋtúpi = bird's tail feathers wáčhiŋhiŋ = a plume, down or soft feather (worn on the head or used as a decoration) wahíŋyažiŋčA = downy feathers waŋblúpi = the tail feathers of an eagle aópazaŋ = a feather worn in the hair Hreinn References: 1. reply #47 above 2. Jan Ullrich, "New Lakota Dictionary", Lakota Language Consortium (2008) 3. Richard G. Hardorff, "The Death of Crazy Horse: A Tragic Episode In Lakota History", Bison Books (2001) pages 56, 113, 128, 265, 270, 271 4. Kingsley Bray at www.american-tribes.com/Lakota/BIO/CrazyHorse-Part1.htm
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