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Chato
Jun 15, 2010 15:01:49 GMT -5
Post by kayitah on Jun 15, 2010 15:01:49 GMT -5
Thank you for your contribution, Jeroen.
I agree with you - instead of judging and blaming one individual or the other, it's better to try to understand their motives and actions.
It seems that every leader, if a chief or not, had a notable amount of followers/supporters (because they considered their leader's way the most promising one).
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Post by kayitah on Jun 13, 2010 18:10:28 GMT -5
Since I have been interested in Chiricahua and Western Apache culture and history, Chato has been one of the most interesting, complex and controversial characters. I have always felt sympathy for him, unlike many others who look at him as the "arch-traitor", one of those being responsible for the bad things that happened to the Chiricahua back then. Having followed Chato's biography very closely, and regarding Britton Davis' memoirs as one of the most honest, unbiased and reliable sources available, I have always had a different opinion of Chato. While many may not like what's following, I still wish to express my sentiments and my point of view. While many people glorify Geronimo's efforts as heroics, they demonize Chato. In the end, the Chiricahua had to suffer mainly because of what Geronimo did, and what Geronimo did not do. Naiché and the rest of the band may be guilty to some extent as well, but in the end, peace was arranged with the efforts of great men like Yanozha, Fun, Ahnandia, Perico, Kayitah, and Martine. Geronimo proved unable to do anything substantially good for his people and, while Chato is viewed as a traitor by many (because he enlisted as a scout, after being one of the militant leaders of the free Chiricahuas), he did what many other Chiricahuas felt to be the only way to save the people - work with and trust in honest men like Davis, Crawford, Gatewood, and Crook. While Chato is almost a forgotten man these days, Geronimo is often portrayed as a hero - mainly by white Americans. I doubt many Chiricahuas see him as a hero. In the end, Geronimo's actions proved to be of the most severe for his followers - and even for those who opposed him. In the end, it was betrayal at the hands of the government (namely president Cleveland) that landed all Chiricahuas - even the scouts and those living peacefully at San Carlos - in exile and imprisonment in Florida. The dimension of the aftermath makes this more than just another chapter of shame in U.S. history. There are always two sides of the medal, and in some way both men may have felt that their way is the right way. For first-hand accounts watch "Geronimo and the Apache Resistance" (1988) of the American Experience series. There is also a newer work available, called "We shall remain - Geronimo" (2009, also by American Experience). I prefer the older version, but both stories are told affectingly. Attachments:
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Post by kayitah on Jun 13, 2010 16:33:49 GMT -5
Also, I think Lozen went in with the reservation group despite what you read. Eyelash probably went in with Chihuahua or the reservation group. Lets see if we can find a picture of Goso. There has to be a Carlisle picture of him. Sounds plausible. And I agree, there has to be a Carlisle photograph of Goso. I am also trying to find pictures of the following young men and, in case I come across them, will gladly post them in the forum: Benedict Jozhe Duncan Balachu Binday Chechil Motsos A few days ago, I stumbled over the following picture of Carlisle students - identified as Charles Istel, Humphrey, and Thomas. The date seems to be wrong, though, just as it's the case with other Carlisle photographs. Charles Istel (or Istee) is Victorio's son. Humphrey would be Humphrey Escharzay or Simon Humphrey. According to the list below, there were two boys with the first name "Thomas" - Thomas Dasalay and Thomas Morgan, as well as one named George Thomas. The list doesn't seem complete/correct, as Goso, Jasper Kanseah, and Chappo (among others, probably) are missing - and "Oliver pregnant dogaict" is a rather weird name, seems incorrect. APACHE Al-ze-say, Apache Asa, Apache Augustine, Apache Ba-Chi-Si, Apache Dorathy, Apache Eskuzeh, Apache Ga-yar-lay, Apache Grasshopper, Apache Gu-yar-lay, Apache Ha-ba-day, Apache Hoo-sa-tau-lus, Apache In-to-neh, Apache Janette, Apache Ki-ya-eve, Apache Lavender, Apache Little Boy, Apache Ma-chu-she-yazhi, Apache Marcellus, Apache Margaret, Apache Nahtoke, Apache Naichez, Apache Odellah, Apache Odlehah, Apache Roderick, Apache Romana, Apache Shulay, Apache Weethea, Apache Hattie Acklin, Apache Setino Ah-ka-bak, Apache Ezra Anigoon, Apache Naameco Antonio, Apache Lawrence Asa, Apache Duncan Balachu, Apache Godfry Balatcha, Apache Colton Baleatza, Apache Guy Basket, Apache Given Bat, Apache Eben Beads, Apache Charles Belin, Apache David Belin, Apache Tennyson Berry, Apache Edna Betahkatoch, Apache Jason Betzinez, Apache Marcellus Bezahun, Apache Oliver pregnant dogaict, Apache Ernie Black, Apache William Black, Apache Lorenzo Bonds, Apache Susie Bonds, Apache Lorenzo Bonito, Apache Constant Bread, Apache Little Bruce, Apache John Bullock, Apache Michael Bums, Apache Michael Burns, Apache Seth Cantanita, Apache Nellie Carey, Apache Nellie Cary, Apache Albert Cassadore, Apache Norman Cassadore, Apache Ambrose Chache, Apache Horace Chatto, Apache Joe Chidden, Apache Joel Chidder, Apache Romona Chihuahua, Apache Hugh Chee, Chiricahua Apache Asa Daklugie, Apache Simon Dakosu, Apache Thomas Dasalay, Apache Hanna Dechizien, Apache Wilbur Deehism, Apache Titus Deer Head, Apache Randall Deluhey, Apache Eva Dezay, Apache Charles thingyens, Apache Katie Dinta, Apache Hiram Doctor, Apache Clay Domieah, Apache Podger Dudzardo, Apache Brian Early Bird, Apache Alfred Eatah, Apache Alfred Elmer, Apache Alphonso Eloista, Apache Humphrey Escharzay, Apache Rudolph Esenday, Apache Fred K. Eskelsejah, Apache Little Eunice, Apache Joseph Ezhuna, Apache Owen Fire, Apache Owen Firy, Apache Roland Fish, Apache Charles Foster, Apache Ada Fox Catcher, Apache James Fox Catcher, Apache Talbot Goday, Apache Frank Good, Apache Justin Head, Apache Ernest Hodges, Apache Ernest P. Hogee, Apache Mark Hopkins, Apache Simon Humphrey, Apache Richard Imach, Apache Eva Inosaien, Apache Geoffrey Iskie, Apache Charles Istel, Apache Beulah Istone, Apache Allen Jadode, Apache Naomi Kahten, Apache Judith Kainkah, Apache Caleb Keckjolay, Apache Warren Kedlistie, Apache Isabel Kelcusay, Apache Mabel Kelcusay, Apache Samuel Keno, Apache Myra Kiecha, Apache Ralph King, Apache Richard Kissitti, Apache Anna Kittail, Apache Bertha Klinekoli, Apache Maggie Lauethla, Apache Bruce Little Apache Dubois Little Boy, Apache Luis Little, Apache Dexter Loco, Apache Laban Loco Jim, Apache Maggie Louethla, Apache Martin Machukay, Apache Marg. Madasthilah, Apache Henry Mahtoki, Apache Gail Marko, Apache Sibyl Marko, Apache Henry Marmon, Apache Donald McIntosh, Apache Thomas Morgan, Apache Lulu Nabohugo, Apache Susie Nachkea, Apache Vincent Nahtailsh, Apache Ralph Naltwey, Apache Laura Nalzahash, Apache Ruth Nantasnaggil, Apache Vincent Natalish, Apache Mable Navodokieh, Apache Clement Noadloda, Apache Mary North, Apache Knox Nostlin, Apache Sanson Novan, Apache Anthony Nuske, Apache Peter Ocotea, Apache Hugh Onee, Apache Henry Ouka, Apache Jeannette Pahgosta, Apache Janette Pahgostatum, Apache Bruce Patterson, Apache Miriam Patton, Apache Festus Pelone, Apache Daniel Philips, Apache Jonas Place, Apache Phillip Pratt, Apache Gilbert Pusher, Apache Susie Reed, Apache Jason Retzinez, Apache Juan Ruiz, Apache Louis B. Russell, Apache Ah-ko-bak Se-tine, Apache Clement Seamilzay, Apache Annette Seuisson, Apache Justin Shedee, Apache Frederick Skahsojah, Apache Hoke Smith, Apache Norman Smith, Apache Oswald Smith, Apache Marion Sodda, Apache Alonzo Spieche, Apache Leon Spieche, Apache Lambert Stone, Apache Neil Suison, Apache Annette Suisson, Apache Olida Tapenaisihelinah, Apache Mary North Tasso, Apache George Thomas, Apache Morgan Toprock, Apache Eric Tortillo, Apache Rachel Tsikahda, Apache Burdette Tsisnah, Apache Lucy Tsisnah, Apache Parker West, Apache Clement Woadloda, Apache Cotton Wood, Apache Lucia Yaitsah, Apache Margaret Yates, Apache Aaron Yatesek, Apache Joseph Yeahpau, Apache Helen Yotsaya, Apache Eric Yucy, Apache Dock Yukatanache, Apache Carl Yukkanina, Apache Allen Yuzos, Apache Penelope Zaca, Apache Calvin Zhonne, Apache Viola Zich, Apache mdenney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=20&page=3CHIRICAHUA APACHE Bishop Eatennah, Chiricahua Apache Bishop Eatennah, Chiricahua Apache Basil Ekarden, Chiricahua Apache Beatrice Kiahtel, Chiricahua Apache Beatrice Kiahtel, Chiricahua Apache Marg. Nadasthiloh, Chiricahua Apache Samson Noran, Chiricahua Apache mdenney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=20&page=4siris-archives.si.edu/ipac20/ipac.jsp?uri=full=3100001~!74341!0#focus Attachments:
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Post by kayitah on Jun 11, 2010 11:34:43 GMT -5
I always hate when they dressed Geronimo up in other tribes regalia to make him look more "Indian." Exactly. Just like the image where Geronimo "kills" a buffalo... as if Chiricahua ever hunted buffalo... It reflects the ignorant stereotype-view of some people.
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Post by kayitah on Jun 10, 2010 13:10:39 GMT -5
and this one of Naiche's and band: behind Fun is Chappo, and the man behind Naiché is barely visible, which makes an identification rather hard... I pass I think I have a better quality image of that photograph, I just have to search through my collection... I'll post it as soon as I find it.
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Post by kayitah on Jun 10, 2010 3:23:01 GMT -5
Front row left is definately Biyaneta. 3rd from left is Dorothy Naiche, forth from left not sure if that is Haozinne or Eclahheh. Tall man in center is still being debated. Man with medicine hat on is Hustinney, boy on far right is identified wrong, that is Garditha. Man in very back row on left on horse is Hunlona. Man holding baby is Zhonne. The others I am unsure of. Thank you very much, Perico. I agree with you - but how did you identify Hustianney? I know I also came up with that name, but are you sure the man with the medicine cap is not Laziyah, as often stated? (I agree, though, that he doesn't really look like Laziyah on the train photo)
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Post by kayitah on Jun 9, 2010 22:54:28 GMT -5
here is what I have figured out so far, after doing research:
warriors (sent to fort pickens):
geronimo naiche chappo perico fun yahnozha ahnandia hunlona besh zhonne nah-bay (na-pa, nahi) la-zai-yah (laziyah) motsos kilthdigai tissnolthos
women (sent to fort marion):
ha-o-zinne - naiches wife bi-ya-neta - pericos wife she-gha - geronimos wife tah-das-te - ahnandias wife nah-chlon - chappos wife belle - funs wife ugohun - beshs wife yahnozhas wife nahbays wife laziyahs wife tissnolthos' wife
teens/children (sent to fort marion):
kanseah (m) garditha (m) alchintoyeh (m) laeswani (w) nahbays infant (w) chappos baby (?)
scouts (sent to fort marion):
kayitah martine
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Post by kayitah on Jun 8, 2010 2:11:02 GMT -5
...I just came over "another" image of Giles Lancey (sitting)... and if the identification on this photograph is right, the man one the above photo(s) is not Lancey. I am still quite sure that (on the above images) it's one and the same individual. Where did you locate this picture? The man standing is definately Burdett Tsisnah. Is this on Siris? I don't remember where I found it. I've had it for some time now, but just stumbled on it when I went through my "non-indexed" images. The man standing is definitely Burdette Tsisnah, you're right. You may also want to check farwest.it, another very friendly community with an Apache forum.
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Post by kayitah on Jun 7, 2010 14:34:04 GMT -5
...I just came over "another" image of Giles Lancey (sitting)... and if the identification on this photograph is right, the man one the above photo(s) is not Lancey. I am still quite sure that (on the above images) it's one and the same individual. Attachments:
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Post by kayitah on Jun 7, 2010 13:27:47 GMT -5
Actually, I'm not sure if the identifications on the Fort Marion image are right. According to a friend with very good knowledge, who is a regular contributor at farwest.it, the man in the following Carlisle photograph is Giles Lancey, as identified by Mrs. Miriam Perrett. Attachments:
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Post by kayitah on Jun 7, 2010 13:20:43 GMT -5
This could be Tissnolthos, but I am open to other suggestions: This person is identified as Kulle. Who Im guessing is Colle. You're right, this is Kutli, Cutle, Cullah, or Colle. They're all one and the same person, the name is just spelled in various ways by different historians and photographers.
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Post by kayitah on Jun 7, 2010 2:40:39 GMT -5
Thank you for your contribution, shan. Unfortunately, I don't know the birthdate of Lancey. He was probably in his mid-twenties. Below is part of an image which shows the unidentified Chiricahua and Fun. It seems that the darker shade of Fly's images makes them rather dull and gives the individuals a bit of a "rougher" or "more seasoned" appearance. Not all his images are like this (for example, the one with Naiché, Geronimo, Perico, and Fun has more contrast to it). Is there anyone who has all the Fly photographs in high-resoultion quality? Or is there a website who has them? (I actually have the booklet with all C.S. Fly photographs from the Geronimo Campaign, but the prints are rather small and scanning and resizing doesn't help either...) Attachments:
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