jk bear wintercount info

[wolfgang911]

does anyone know if there is something published on the yanktonai john k bear wintercount? i'm crosschecking some information with other wintercounts for the 1700-1750 period and can't find any book on him. anyone?

[buffaloman]

Here is a link to Google books.

books.google.com/

Type in "john k bear wintercount"

James H. Howard wrote "Yanktonai Ethnohistory and the John K. Bear Winter Count" that was published as a Memoir for PLAINS ANTHROPOLOGIST in 1976.

Looks like it is still available for $1.00.

www.ou.edu/cas/archsur/plainsanth/pa/backorders.htm

[wolfgang911]

thanks buffaloman i will try to order it but so sent 1 dollar from europe , hope it works.
Does anyone have the pictograph and sioux code for the year 1710?
On youtube the sioux are depicted as bullies and pirates by one of their yanktonai descendants still living around the fort ;D
titled
"the Sioux annihilated ANOTHER tribe"
why another tribe and why annihilated? on so little evidence...!
Well look at the other vid's they are all about scouts, custer, and great indian police officers and biased views of whitestone hill, straight in the pocket of custerdivision & c°.
Portraying the sioux as bad for the "they got what they deserved" case is high on youtube as you can not counter there authors videos, who can skip delete whatever they want with comments.

I don't think sioux tried to annihilate in warfare as a goal.
Also they had not enough horses in 1710,
so they had to do partly on foot, surround a village and annihilitate,
while they just came into the plains and did not have shawnee neighbours at that time, shawnee is another guess from the editor of the dakota translation.

The video is a reponse to support the pawnee massacre video by 7th cavalrymanbogus, also false in data in details, this massacre was perpertrated by brulé and oglalawhilst the bear wintercount battle or massacre is yanktonai dakota
another apple and pear comparaison.
Anyway i don't have this wintercount in my books so i can't
proof my suspicions...
anyone?

[gorkinoff]

Jun 17, 2009 16:54:31 GMT -5 @wolfgang911 said:

thanks buffaloman i will try to order it but so sent 1 dollar from europe , hope it works.
Does anyone have the pictograph and sioux code for the year 1710?
On youtube the sioux are depicted as bullies and pirates by one of their yanktonai descendants still living around the fort ;D
titled
"the Sioux annihilated ANOTHER tribe"
why another tribe and why annihilated? on so little evidence...!
Well look at the other vid's they are all about scouts, custer, and great indian police officers and biased views of whitestone hill, straight in the pocket of custerdivision & c°.
Portraying the sioux as bad for the "they got what they deserved" case is high on youtube as you can not counter there authors videos, who can skip delete whatever they want with comments.

I don't think sioux tried to annihilate in warfare as a goal.
Also they had not enough horses in 1710,
so they had to do partly on foot, surround a village and annihilitate,
while they just came into the plains and did not have shawnee neighbours at that time, shawnee is another guess from the editor of the dakota translation.

The video is a reponse to support the pawnee massacre video by 7th cavalrymanbogus, also false in data in details, this massacre was perpertrated by brulé and oglalawhilst the bear wintercount battle or massacre is yanktonai dakota
another apple and pear comparaison.
Anyway i don't have this wintercount in my books so i can't
proof my suspicions...
anyone?

I can see there is a language difference and your post is difficult to translate. I really don't know what you are saying...

I think it goes like this (correct me if I'm wrong)...

I think you are asking whether the Brule and Oglala did a raid on a neighboring tribe (according to a yanktonai wintercount 1710) and wiped out that tribe....?...and you are asking whether the yanktonai would have been parties to that event in order to produce the wintercount. Remember that these bands were expanding during that time. And according to the prevailing opinion these tribes were pushed west by the ojibwe (who were supplied with guns by the french traders)

According to British Officer Lt. Gorrell (1763):

"This day 12 warriors of the Sioux came here (Green Bay Wi.) It is certainly the greatest nation of Indians yet to be found. Not above 200 of them were ever armed with fire-arms, the rest depending entirely on bows and arrows and darts, which they use with more skill than any other Indian nation in North America. They can shoot the wildest and largest beasts in the woods at 70 to 100 yards. They are remarkable for their dancing; The other nations take the fashion from them."

According to Jonathon Carver (1766):

"Near the river St. Croix reside three bands of the Nadewessie (Nadowe-ss-iw-eg is Ojibwe for lesser snakes)indians, called the river bands. This nation is composed at present, of 11 bands. They were originally 12, but the Assinipoiles some years ago revolting, and separating themselves from the others, There remain only 11."

This is 1766. I think that the Yanktonnai could conceivably have been present to witness this event and written it into their wintercount in 1710.

During an investigation by congress in 1824 of the claim by Carvers heirs to a supposed land grant made to Carver by the Sioux, General Henry Leavenworth stated that the Dakotas had informed him that the Sioux of the Plains had never owned any land east of the Mississippi.

I believe this to be in error because the land grant made to Carver was not by the Sioux of the Plains, but the Sioux of the River. The Turtle and The Snake (Wapahasha and Redwing) made the grant to Carver. (according to the Wisconsin Historical Collections)

The point I am trying to make is that the pears and apples both have common ancestors. and it is concievable that the Pears saw the Apples do something and wrote it down in 1710 .

Another point is that the Sioux had a religious custom of The Scalp Dance. This is our Religion. This is our Religion. This is our Religion... So it is conceivable that they tried to count as many coup as possible and did wipe out an entire tribe. Without any hesitation. Annihilation wasn't a goal, but a consequence of them practicing their religion.

Anybody else?...I will admit that i came at this from an angle that most wouldn't have.

Jon Brings

[wolfgang911]

thanks gorky for replying

I got some of your interesting points but obviously my resume was to dense to be understood.
You need to watch the video on you tube otherwise you won't get the point.

What is your opinion on doing "history" based on the interpretation of just 1 pictograph?
How can one accuse a tribe of annihilating once again another tribe and thus set the tendancy of the murderous sioux on so little information?
Especially as the wintercount of 1710 is yanktonai while the video is a reponse to underline the attrocity of a brulé oglala pawnee masscre event in... 1873.

We don't even know what exactly happened at LBH even with thousands of accounts so to claim that the sioux (dakota) exterminated another tribe (how many lodges..?) just based on 1 pictograph...

All pictographs in books I have on wintercounts in early 1700 " mention grosso modo the same enemies as in the 1850" : pawnee, crow, omaha etc... which indicates that they were almost living in the same area as a century later just a little more to the missouri (I would like to discuss this in another thread and not develop here)
The editor FAL claims the yankonai translation is shawnee of the massacred tribe : the shawnee were as fierce a tribe as the sioux in 1710 and not living as neighbours. Neither would they let go an extermination of a subgroup unrevenged.

Anyway in those days with few horses surrounding a tribe, any tribe, around the missouri and exterminating it means a lot of organisation (on foot) and a lot of men. Before the days of smallpox I doubt it easy to fullfill such a job.
I doubt the whole story as I doubt about a lot of things in history (and like debate! come in ).
If such a terrible event occured we have to cross examine information before stating such a thing. As I don't have the 1700-1750 jk bear wintercount.. anyone...?

People publish a lot of crap on youtube.
This is different as these historical videos are edited from Fort Abraham Lincoln official website... that's why I take it seriously. They look cool at first sight, nice guy (dakota) nice music but watch them all and you get the point. The views did not change in 150 years around that fort. Sioux were bullies and pirates according to the editor and he wishes to prove it.

I'm very interested in your opininons.

[wolfgang911]

here is the link

enjoy!