Here´s another portrait Jeroen has send to me. It shows Patesni, probably photographed by Frank Fiske. Jeroen told me Patesni can be translated as "Does not butcher" but he´s not quite certain. Does anybody got more info about Patesni?
Post by kingsleybray on Mar 28, 2009 5:37:41 GMT -5
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea that this Did Not Butcher is the son of the Miniconjou Lame Deer. Some of the people who came back from Canada and settled at Hunkpapa communities on the Standing Rock Reservation were by birth Miniconjous. Flying By, one of Lame Deer's sons, certainly settled at Standing Rock. I wonder if Pate-sni was his nickname?
It's interesting, but also listed in Struck Plenty's Hunkpapa band in the 1885 tally is a man called Foremost Eagle, Wanbli Tokeya. Also translated as Leader Eagle and First Eagle, this is the name of a man married to one of Lame Deer's daughters. He had been among the Northern Lakotas who were with Lame Deer at the time the latter's camp was attacked by Col. Miles in 1877, subsequently (Sept. 1877) surrendering at Spotted Tail Agency before joining the breakout movement to Canada that fall. The Spotted Tail Agency census calls hims a Sans Arc. I don't know for sure if he is the man in the 1885 Standing Rock list, but it's worth consideration.
I wonder if Ephriam's census concordance sheds any light on these matters?
Thank you for the great photograph of Did Not Butcher. I have not seen that one before. Does anyone know the source of the original photograph?
Dietmar: you mentioned that one of Lame Deer's sons was named Did Not Butcher. What is your source for that? According to George Flying By, Lame Deer had three sons: Fool Heart, Flying By and Shoot Bear Running.
DID NOT BUTCHER, PAULPatesni (c1854-1934). He first appears in the Standing Rock Agency records in late 1881 as a member of Fool Heart and later George Flying By's band of Minneconjou (recall from an earlier discussion that Flying By was originally known as Struck). In the spring of 1882, Fool Heart and part of the band transferred to the Cheyenne River Agency; part remained behind at Standing Rock under the leadership of Struck/Flying By. Did Not Butcher was among those who remained behind at Standing Rock.
Did Not Butcher married about 1884-86 and had a number of children, three of whom were still living in 1910. He died of heart trouble on March 7, 1934.
Interestingly, when he was asked in 1910 about his tribe, he listed his father as Upper Brule and his mother as Minneconjou; his wife was a Hunkpapa (she listed her father as Hunkpapa and her mother as Minneconjou so she probably considered herself Minneconjou). The family surrendered with Lame Deer's band and were eventually counted as Hunkpapa at Standing Rock. I cannot identify him in the Sitting Bull Surrender Census though he is probabaly there by a different name.
I would like to know more about his possible relationship to Lame Deer!
my source is "Lame Deer - Seeker of Visions" by Erdoes:
"My great-grandfather Lame Deer was a chief of the Mni Owoju - the Planters by the Water... he had three wives. His first wife had three sons: Did Not Butcher, Flying By and my own grandfather, Cante Witko, which means Crazy Heart. The second wife had one daughter. The third wife had no children. My other grandfather was named Good Fox."
Kingsley: That is correct. Take a look at the Joseph Flying Bye discussion string (under Hunkpapa).
FLYING BY, GEORGE Kinyan Hiyaye (c1851-1930). Minnecojou. Name also translated as Flying Along and Flying Away. Also known as Struck or Struck Plenty. Younger son of Lame Deer.
As noted above, the remnants of Lame Deer's band surrendered and were transferred to the Standing Rock Agency. They were initially counted under Lame Deer's son, Crazy Heart/Foolish Heart. In the Sitting Bull Surrender Census, this band numbers 26 families/112 people. Agent McLaughlin also issued annuities to this band in December 1881; his list includes 32 families or 104 people. Part of this band transferred with Fool Heart to Cheyenne River; part remained at Standing Rock under Struck also known as Struck Plenty. In the Sitting Bull Surrender Census, this man is listed as Flying Along; in the later census records, he is listed as Struck. He is again referred to as Flying By beginnng with the 1892 census. (Hence the speculation that Lame Deer and the original Minneconjou headman Flying By were possibly brothers and that when the first Flying By died without children, his nephew took the name. But I have no proof of this.)
Dietmar's contribution only adds to the list of Lame Deer's children. Several accounts say that Lame Deer had three sons, but we have a number of different names.
According to Flying By, the three sons were: Fool Heart, Flying By and Shoot Bear Running. Then from Lame Deer: Seeker of Visions, we have Crazy Heart, Flying By and Did Not Butcher. And we have the contemporary accounts that identify Fast Bull as a son of Lame Deer. Can we make sense of this?
Last Edit: Mar 29, 2009 17:53:42 GMT -5 by ephriam
One other thought. George Flying By, in his 1912 interview with Walter Camp, said that Lame Deer "had 7 girls and 3 boys." He then listed the three boys as: "Flying By and Fool Heart -- Chante Witko; Shoot Bear Running -- Mato Kute Inyaike." He then noted that his two brothers were "now dead".
Did Not Butcher was still alive in 1912. If he was a brother, why did George Flying By not mention him and why did he say that his brothers were all dead.
Perhaps John Lame Deer was incorrect in the relationship? Or perhaps he was a "son" in the broader Lakota sense?
Post by emilylevine on Apr 21, 2010 13:52:35 GMT -5
Waggoner writes: "Most of Lame Deer’s band escaped into Canada, while some made their way east to the Cheyenne River reservation. White Horse, Flying By, and Pauŋka lived many years on the Standing Rock Reservation. These were brothers of Lame Deer who were in that battle." I am trying to find information on "Paunka." ("To Push Something/Somebody Over"?)...anyone know anything?
(I am also trying to track down someone named Knocks Them Down. I thought he was Yanktonai, but now I wonder if there isn't a connection---Push Somebody Down---Knocks Them Down???)
Post by kingsleybray on Apr 21, 2010 16:35:10 GMT -5
emily, as you may well know Makula (Left Heron) told Ella Deloria that he and three other youths were invited by the crier of the Miniconjou Tokala society to join the Tokala. He names the other three as Kinyan Hiyaya (He Goes By Flying), Mato-hlo-inyanka (Bear Runs Growling), and Paunka (He causes to fall by pushing against). The first is the younger Flying By, born ca. 1850 (like Makula) and one of Lame Deer's sons. The same individual mentioned by Waggoner in your quote. This was at a Tokala re-organization that I would assume fits somewhere in the later 1860s.
Source: Julian Rice, "Ella Deloria's The Buffalo People" (University New Mexico Press, 1994), p. 207.
Post by emilylevine on Apr 21, 2010 17:41:13 GMT -5
Kingsley, how do you recall these things!!! I pulled Deloria off the shelf and there's your quote--right with that wonderful passage about Weasel Bear. So... interesting that the man that Waggoner identifies as a BROTHER of Lame Deer is connected via Makula with SONS of Lame Deer. (Of course, this could be Paunka II, i.e. a son of Lame Deer's brother.) Any other thoughts?