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Post by Dietmar on Sept 22, 2009 14:09:27 GMT -5
... without looking through my bookshelf... I think the last photo from Charlie is of a Southern Cheyenne chief called Bobtail (or perhaps also Bobtail Horse).
There also was a Northern Cheyenne Elkhorn warrior, who fought at the Little Bighorn. He later settled in Montana. He could be the one in Jeroen´s photo. There are photos of him in Powell and elsewhere.
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Post by grahamew on Sept 23, 2009 1:35:19 GMT -5
I have this as Bobtail, not Bobtail Horse.
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Post by charlie on Sept 23, 2009 4:23:17 GMT -5
I'm under shock...I always have seen the last image labelled as Bobtail Horse, Northern Cheyenne, who was a great warrior at LBH! Then, the image posted by Jeroen may be the real Bobtail Horse?
Can anyone added some infos about BOBTAIL (Southern Cheyenne)? Thanks.
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Post by jeroen on Sept 23, 2009 10:46:58 GMT -5
I agree with Dietmar and Grahame that Charlie's photo is most likely Bobtail... I have another one of the same chief, which I also have as Bobtail, not Bobtail Horse:  so the id of the one I posted earlier may be right after all as the famous Northern Cheyenne warrior... |
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Post by Dietmar on Sept 23, 2009 14:36:36 GMT -5
Charlie has sent me another photo of Bobtail:  Charlie, I haven´t found any info on the Southern Cheyenne Bobtail. He is in several delegation photos from the 1880s. According to author Stan Hoig he was also known as Bobtail Horse. If anyone knows more about him, please post information here or start a new thread for him. We can transfer the photos later. Thanks. |
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Post by shan on Sept 23, 2009 17:02:07 GMT -5
Jeroen,
I went and had a look at my copy of People of Sacred Mountain by Peter Powell, and I would say that the man in your first photograph is definitely Bobtail Horse, who was of course one of the men who first confronted Custers troopers at either Ford B, or Ford D you takes your choice. On the other hand whoever the man is in your picture Dietmar, he certainly isn't the same man
On an entirely different matter. I was looking through a remaindered book on the Wild West today and came across a third photograph of Geronimo and his band sat on a sloping bank beneath the train that was taking them to captivity. I'd seen two previous photos but this one, which consisted mainly of some 20--30 troopers posing on the bank, with a few Apaches sat behind them including Fun and Natches, plus a number of other Indians on the steps of the train, was completely new to me. Is anyone familiar with this third photo, and does anyone have a version of it that they can post.
Some time back I asked if anyone knew how many photographs Fly took around the time of the surrender but got no reply, but maybe there are more out there that just never get seen, just like the third photo I came across today.
Low Dog.
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Post by jeroen on Sept 25, 2009 1:10:41 GMT -5
Hello Low Dog,
So we can be pretty sure that it is actually Bobtail Horse then... Thanks!
As for the photos of Apaches sitting in front of the train in Texas in 1886, I know there are at least three of them and I once read there is actually a fourth one which is out of focus, although I have never seen that one... I do have the three others, question is, in which file did I leave them?! I'll post the lesser known ones as soon as I find them.... I checked out your website a while ago, great art works!
best wishes
Jeroen
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Post by Dietmar on Sept 25, 2009 11:05:08 GMT -5
Here´s one portrait of the Northern Cheyenne Bobtail Horse:  |
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Post by jeroen on Sept 27, 2009 3:09:12 GMT -5
You are absolutely right Dietmar. I have seen this portrait countless times but never realized it is in fact the same man! Thanks...
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Post by charlie on Sept 30, 2009 11:07:02 GMT -5
Shan: I think that in your book "People of Sacred Mountain" there are some info about Southern Cheyenne chief LITTLE CHIEF, also called by Father De Smet "REDSKIN". He often is, in the delegation photo of 1851, exchanged with the famous Roman Nose.
He died in 1852. Can you added other info about him?
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Post by charlie on Oct 1, 2009 3:59:37 GMT -5
BOBTAIL HORSE (VA'KOHE HAMEHE). Northern Cheyenne, born in 1850, belonged to Himoiyoqis (Crooked Lances) war society.
At LBH battle, he was one of the first warriors to crossed the river at "Medicine Tail Ford" and to fired against the vangarde of left wing of Custer battalion, the E Company.
He captured two grey horses.
Later, he became a scout under general N. Miles.
In 1879, he travelled with other seven Cheyenne to Canada to parley with Sitting Bull on his village on Milk River, to persuade him come back in USA.
He had a lively discussion with the great chief in his personal lodge, but he didn't manage to get no result. Died in 1922.
Other info about him?
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Post by shan on Oct 1, 2009 5:54:00 GMT -5
Charlie,
I had a look in the book for you, but unfortunately he doesn't mention a Redskin, but does mention someone called Red Shin, saying that he was one of the few warriors who tried to stand their ground and tried to fight off the troopers at the Washita. Beyond that he doesn't mention him again.
With regards to Little Chief, he mentions two men of that name, one was Little Chief who was apparently one of the Southern people, and was amongst those who were arrested and imprisoned by a Colonel Neil in April 1875.
The other man known as Little Chief was a Dog soldier who, having been out on a raid against the Crows was amongst a party of 15 Dog soldiers who were attacked by some troopers who had been informed that they had stolen some mules. Although taken by surprise, they successfully managed to fight off the soldiers off, in the process killing the officer and wounding or killing 3 others {he's not specific about that, } they themselves had 3 warriors wounded. This all happened close to the Southern Platte in April 1864.
And that is all he has to say about these men, not much but I hope it helps.
Low Dog
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Post by Dietmar on Oct 1, 2009 14:52:32 GMT -5
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Post by charlie on Oct 9, 2009 6:03:40 GMT -5
Shan, thank you for your research. Grinnell in "The fighting Cheyennes" wrote:
<<For the treaty of 1851, Alights on the Cloud went to Washington with two chiefs: White Antelope, died at Sand Creek, and LITTLE CHIEF, called by Father DeSmet also RED SKIN.
This last died about 1858 (not 1852 as above...)>>.
These are the only info that i have about this mysterious chief.
Looking at the famous photo of 1851 treaty, judging by his headdress, i belive that he was a very important chief.
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Post by charlie on Oct 12, 2009 9:43:28 GMT -5
HIN TAMAHECA: can you post again the image of ROAN BEAR? He was a great warrior at LBH battle!
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