Spotted Tail´s Family

[dickmill]

The problem with ID's -- here is a montage of photos of Spotted Tail's sons William and Jr.:



I've spent a lot of time identifying these two men (and making corrections!), but the middle photo (supplied by Dietmar above in this thread) truly makes identification difficult.

The bottom two rows are Jr. The top photo and the left and right in the second row are William.

Is the dark brown photo (second row middle) Jr. or William?

[dickmill]

Asking for help from the members again:

In documenting photos of Spotted Tail's sons William and Jr., I ran across the following at NAA a few years ago. No one I've spoken to so far (including experts at NAA and friends on Rosebud) have been able to identify the man:



The man is obviously not Spotted Tail Jr, but I've been unable to identify him. Dietmar suggests that it's "Poor Dog." Does anyone have photos of Poor Dog to compare?

The following photo is from "Buffalo Bill's Wild West Warriors" (Kasebier photos edited by Michelle Delaney of the Smithsonian, pg 54.) The caption is "Spotted Tail, his wife and son" and is identified as circa 1898. We know that Jr. died in 1888 and the man is definitely not William. The man does have similarities to the Smithsonian photo above, but I don't think it's the same man. Any help?



Finally, from my collection is the following:





I believe that this photo was taken c. 1886-88. The building in the rear appears to be a Rosebud building. The large man in the middle appears to be Roast ("Roaster" in some photos.) Note the man to HIS LEFT -- he looks like the "Spotted Tail Jr." in the NAA photo above, identified by Dietmar as Poor Dog.

Is the man in the top and bottom photo Poor Dog? Who is the man in the Kasebier photo in the middle? Thanks!

[grahamew]

Geat photo. Could you blow up the other faces, please?

Here's Poor Dog and it looks like a match.

[Dietmar]

Oh, I forgot about the Rinehart photo. Thanks Grahame!

I´m 99 percent sure the man designated as "Spotted Tail Jr." is indeed Poor Dog. I first took the Anderson group photo of Rosebud chiefs in 1894 as a reference. Here´s Poor Dog from that photo:



There´s another Rinehart photo of him at the Smithsonian (SIRIS):



Unfortunately I know nothing about Poor Dog, there´s no mention of him in any of my books. Does anyone know?

[Dietmar]

Dick, regarding your montage photo:
Very hard to tell, but I tend to believe it is more likely Young Spotted Tail than William, although I have no real proof.
The photographer of this portait, W.R. Cross, took most of his photos I know of early in the 1870ies and 80ies. William went to Carlisle in 1879, when he was quite young. If he is the one in the picture we speak about, it must have been taken some years after he returned, as he looks older and has already married.

I have no idea about the Käsebier photo. He doesn´t look like a Spotted Tail son at all.

[dickmill]

For Grahmew:









Let me know if you need even more detail! From all the photos I've seen, Roast (and now Poor Dog) are the only ones I can identify.

[grahamew]

Here's another one - labelled Standing Elk, Roaster and "Spotted Tail's son":

[dickmill]

Graham:

Tho photo you posted above is on the front of a "photo card" with this on the back:



Actually, the man is Whirlwind Soldier. I've almost finished a small research project on Whirlwind Soldier, including several conversations with descendants on Rosebud. I'll try and put up information later today, but the short story is that Whirlwind Soldier was a nephew of Spotted Tail and one of Spotted Tail's entourage (his descendant called him a "bodyguard"), and his "adopted son", a common term for the Lakota, but misconstrued by whites as a blood relative.

I have original documentation which explain how people (historians) conclude he is a son (because that's what he's called!), when he's not.

This is his relationship to Spotted Tail:

Tangle Hair was the father of both Spotted Tail and a daughter (don't know her name) who married Spotted Crow (Cheyenne) and produced Whirlwind Soldier.

[grahamew]

Excellent - and thanks for the scans of the group photo yesterday.

I knew I'd seen him somewhere: amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=group&action=display&thread=842&page=1

[Dietmar]

Dick,

I second Grahame, excellent! I´m intrigued to hear more about Whirlwind Soldier. I was mistaken myself to call him son-in-law of Spotted Tail. Must have read it somewhere, sorry about that. Thanks for the correction.

What´s puzzling is that these three men, Roast, Standing Elk and Whirlwind Soldier were photographed together at least at three occasions. They must have been friends or connected by some other relation. I´ll post the third group portrait of them later.

Perhaps it would be right to have threads for each of them. Standing Elk was the Brule Corn band leader. He was photographed first time at Fort Laramie in 1868, as was Whirlwind Soldier. Roast or Roaster was said to have been an important medicine man, or wicasa wakan. Although some photographs of him exist, there is nothing known about him, at least in white history books.

Spotted Crow? There was a Cheyenne Chief who was killed at Sand Creek with that same name.

[emilylevine]

Are we pretty sure this is Wapasnu (Roast)? I have been trying to find out more about him. Waggoner says he was a historian. Any relatives out there? Does any one have number 34 of this series?

[emilylevine]

Continuing on the Roast digression:
Baptiste Good winter count, 1864-65
"Roaster made a commemoration of the dead"

[Dietmar]

Emily, I´m not sure if it´s the same picture as No. 34, but I have another photo of Roast, I think. I´ll post it with some other scans we have of him in an own thread:

amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=brule1&action=display&thread=848&page=1

[grahamew]

Incidentally, Herrin, the photographer, sold the works of other photographers along with his own. We've come across him before and mentioned this on the relevant thread.

The three men seem to be wearing the same shirts in both photos, so, presumably, they were taken around the same time, maybe at the same event.

[jeroen]

Is Whirlwind Soldier somehow related to Two Strike too? I ask this because, to me, there is some resemblance, especially in the photo posted by Grahame...