Evolution of Chiricahua local groups (gota)

[Jama]

Where did you get your information on the relationships of these nantan? The books do not mention sibling relationships on every single one nor father/daughter, mother/daughter and very few sibling and progeny relationships. Did you look at any of the genealogies that are available for the Fort Sill Nation? Or, did you do any interviews of existing federally recognized tribal Chiricahua or unrecognized bands? You did a lot of diligent research but I am a skeptic about your intuitions and some of your deductions.

[Mama]

Many errors in your impressive work. Who are you and where are you? Would like a personal chat with you.

[coeurrouge]

Hello,

You can send me personnal message in this proboards if you want. As I wrote in the beginning "This my guess, based on books, sharings in this forum, personnal deductions or intuitions." ready to change if I am wrong.

[ouroboros]

Once again - coeurrouge has based his reconstruction on books, source infos, and personal deductions or intuitions. Some of the relationships between chiefs are confirmed by primary sources, some are hypothetical. There is no certainty for the Nde lineages because even Apaches weren't aware who was related to whom (there is no certainty who was Cochise's father, and Jason Betzinez knew only that Goci was related to Juan Jose Compa, who was not a Chokonen). What's more, we have problems to classify some gotas as parts of certain bands as is the case with the Aqua Nueva (mixed Mescalero-Chiricahua, offshot of Chihenne, or separate and neither Mescalero nor Chiricahua?) However, coeurrouge did a GREAT job and there is no comparable breaking of Chiricahua gotas in any scientific work as far as I know. It is a major achievement and in my opinion the best thread on amertribe proboards.

Feel free to present your alternative vision of the division of Chiriachua gotas and relationships between nantans to that presented by coeurrouge, but please, do it, instead of grumble by stating "many errors" or "I am a skeptic about your intuitions"

[chi1]

May 12, 2022 9:49:53 GMT -5 coeurrouge said:

Hi,

As ouroboros asked, I create this thread.
View Attachment

This my guess, based on books, sharings in this forum, personnal deductions or intuitions. As I understand, all the social structure of the tribe called by Americans "Chiricahuas" was certainly effective in 1700 or lately in 1750. Four bands were assimilated Chiricahuas : Chihenne (the original, apparently, mother of the other bands), Nedni (the most numerous), Chokonen and Bedonkohe (the less numerous and certainly the youngest band).
On the map, Red = Chihenne, Green = Nedni, Blue = Chokonen, Orange = Santa Lucia Gota (mixed Chihenne/Bedonkohe) and Yellow = Bedonkohe.

The spanish called them Chiricagui, Mimbreño and Gileño between 1760 to 1810. they added Mongoloreno after.
I think under the term Chiricagui were the Nednhis and a part of the Chokonens; under Mimbreño the Chihennes, a part of the Chokoknens and the Gol-ga-nes and under Gileño the Bedonkohes, the Santa Lucia gota and a part of the Chokonens. The Mongolerenos were only Bedonkohes

I try an evolution between 1760 and 1919. The local groups as I understand, were known because about their favorite winter location. By time, because of their own history and chief, their size of people moved less or more. Because only the chiefs could discuss truce with strangers, I think we can apprehend the evolution of leadership. Leader of raids were not surely chiefs of their gota. If warrior quitted their gota when they married to live in their spouse's gota, sons of chief usually stayed in their birth's gota.

Generally a warrior became chief about forty years old and, if he did not die before, his chiefstain ended about fifty to fifty-five years old (generally meant before 1850). Often, son or grandson of Chief became chief.

A band chief was a chief who had influence outside his own gota and when he called for it, other gotas of his band joined him.
A tribal chief had influence outside his band, in time of crisis he could be joined by some gotas from other bands. Each chief recognized in the band or tribal level had not the same control and power than a chief of a gota.
Only Goci had an autochratic's control on his band.

From 1850 and from the reservation time, the social structure of the gotas desintegrated and a lot disapearred.

This is my list :

Chihennes :
Gota n°1 :
Naranjo? (c.1750 - c.1810?) chief (1780 - 1810)
Oya? (c.1770 - c.1840?) chief (1810 - 1840)
Ponce (c.1800 - 1854) chief (c.1840-1854)older brother of a Gol-ga-nes' chief, Poncito.
Negrito (c.1810 - 1857) chief (1854 - 1857)
Jlin-tay-i-tith (Loco, c.1820 - 1905) chief (1857 - 1895)

Gota n°2 :
Prieto ? (c.1760 - c.1820?) chief (1800 -1820)
Baishan (Cuchillo Negro, c.1785 - 1857) chief (1820 - 1857) Band chief (1840 - 1857). Father of Riñon, Pajarito (son-in-law of Victorio by Dilth-clyhen), Parajito Chiquito, Turivio (also a son-in-law of Victorio), Turivio Flojo.
Riñon (c. 1800 - 1865) chief (1857 - 1865), son of Cuchillo Negro and son-in-law of Delgadito and Nana.
Bi-duye (Victorio, c.1820 - 1880) chief (1865 - 1880), father of Washington, two other sons, Istee and at least one daughter Dilth-Clyhen.

The gota disappearred in 1880, the survivors united with the gota n°5.

Gota n°3
Gniguisen ? (Manta Negra the Elder, c.1740 - c.1820) chief (1780 - 1820)
Pluma (c.1790 - 1864) chief (1820 - 1845), I think he was the father or grandfather of Bacuthley, Nezulkide, Kaathenay and Kinzhuna.
Veinte Realles/Elias? (c.1805 - 1860) chief (1845 - 1860)
Raton (c.1830 - 1880) chief (1860 - 1864).

The gota disappearred in 1864, the survivors mostly joined the gota n°4.

Gota n°4
Chenaschan? (Manta Negra the younger, c.1750 - 1800) chief (1785 - 1800), brother of Gniguisen.
Itan (c.1795 - 1857) chief (1825 - 1857), because of his gota's location, his close relationship with Mangas Coloradas and Sweeney wrote that a man named Piftan was a brother of Mangas Coloradas, I think Itan was a brother or cousin of Mangas Coloradas.He had a brother called Montera.
Chabnocito (c.1820 - 1861) chief (1857 - 1861)
Nayila (Miguel Tuerto, c.1825 - 1879) chief (1861 - 1879)

The gota disappearred in 1879, the survivors mostly joined the gota n°2.

Gota n°5
Pachatiju? (c.1730 - 1788) chief (1770 - 1788)
Yagonxli (Ojas Coloradas, c.1750 - c.1820) chief (1790 - 1820) band chief (1795 - 1805), older brother of Tagaquechoc.
Boca Matada (or Geta Matada, c.1780 - c.1835) chief (1820 - 1835)
Tudeevia (Delgadito, 1800 - 1861) chief (1835 - 1861), father of Nonithian, grandfather of Betzinez. Nana married apparently one of his sister.
Kas-tziden (Nana, c.1800 - 1896) chief (1861 - 1884). Nana, whose sister was Zee-kharn, was certainly born in the gota n°7. He married a sister of Delgadito and a sister, Na-dos-the, of Geronimo.
Kaathenay (c.1858 - 1918) chief (1884 - 1915). Kaathenay married Guyan, daughter of Zee-kharn and sister of cousin of Blanco.

Gota n°6
Ligero ? (c.1720 -c.1790) chief (1750 - 1770)
Bocon (c.1730 -1790) chief (1770 - 1790)
Tanchintijué (José, c.1750 - c.1820) chief (1790 - 1820)
Caballo Ligero (c.1780 - c.1840) chief (1820 - 1835)
Josécito (c.1790 - 1857), chief (1835 - 1857) brother of José Nuevo.
Salvador (c.1820 - 1871) chief (1857 -1871), son of Mangas Coloradas.
Showano (c.1825 - 1881) chief (1871 - 1878), older brother of Choneska (Big mouth).

The gota disappearred in 1879, the survivors mostly joined the gota n°1.

Gota n°7 (mixed Chihenne/Mescalero)
Nataniju? (c.1730 - c.1790) chief (1760-1790) Band Chief (1770 -1790)son of Chafatole.
Nataniju's son? (c.1750 - c.1810) chief (1790 - 1810)
Dianalté? (c.1770 - c.1825) chief (1810 -1820)
Maya (c.1780 - c.1840) chief (1820 -1835)
Negoyani (Gomez, c.1790 - c.1855 or 1865) chief (1835 - 1855)and great influence on the Southern Mescaleros.
Venancio (c.1810 - ?), son of Gomez
Blanco (c.1830 - 1880) chief (1865 - 1880). Brother of Suldeen, brother or cousin of Guyan, wife of Kaathenay.

The gota disappearred in 1880, the survivors joined the gota n°5 or the Mescalero's tribe.

Nedni

Gol-ga-nes
I try some, but because they disappeared as a division early in 1860's, I am not very sure.

Gota n°1
Coleto Fiero? (c.1715 - c.1775) chief (1755 - 1770)
Inclan (El Zurdo, c.1730 - 1800) chief (1770 - 1790) Division Chief ( 1780 - 1790)
Molote Pinto (c.1750 - c.1810)chief (1790 - 1810)
Cristobal (c.1780 - c.1845) chief (1810 - 1835)
Cigaretto (c.1790 - c.1860) chief (1835 - 1850)
Poncito (c.1810 - c.1860) chief (1850 - 1857), younger brother of the Chihenne's chief Ponce.

The gota disappearred in 1857, the survivors joined the gota n°2.

Gota n°2
Jasquieja? (El Padre, c.1750 - c.1820?) chief (1785 - 1810)
Chantielé? (c.1770 - 1830) chief (1810 - 1825)
Francisquillo (c.1790 - c.1846) chief (1825 - 1846)
Felipe (c.1810 - 1864) chief (1846 - 1864)

The gota disappearred and the Gol-ga-nes in 1864, the survivors joined the Nednhi's division.

Gota n°3
Ycujidillin (c.1750 - c.1820?) chief (1785 - 1805)
Jasquadega (c.1770 - 1849) chief (1805 - 1840), Division's chief (1820 - 1835) possibly the father or uncle of Juana, mother of Geronimo.
Cojinillin (c.1800 - 1863) chief (1840 - 1863)

The gota disappearred in 1863, the survivors joined the gota n°2.

Nednhi

Gota n°1
El Compa (c.1740 - 1794) chief (1780 - 1794) Band chief (1785 - 1794)
Nayulchi (Juan Diego Compa, 1772 - 1837) chief (1794 - 1830), son of El Compa.
Juan José Compa (c.1785 - 1837)chief (1830 -1837), son of El Compa.
Soquilla (c.1800 - 1849) chief (1837 - 1849), father of Nolgee.
Tuscaze (c.1810 - 1867) chief (1849 -1867)
Nolgee (c.1825 - 1878) chief (1867 - 1878), he had at least two sisters, one married certainly Juan (who had one daughter She-gah and one son Yanozah), Cochise's brother, and another married Bish-toyeh (who had one son Kayitah and one daughter Tonsé).

The gota disappearred in 1878, the survivors joined the gota n°4.

Gota n°2
Tisonsé (c.1735 - 1788) chief (1775 - 1788)
Najoe (El Guëro, c.1770 - 1837) chief (1790 -1825)
Marcelo (c.1780 - 1837) chief (1825 - 1837)
Ronquillo (C.1790 - 1850?) chief (1837-1850)
José Nuevo (c.1800 - 1861) chief (1850 -1861), younger brother of the Chihenne's chief Josécito.
Susopa (c.1820 - 1863) chief (1861 - 1863)

The gota disappearred in 1863, the survivors joined the gota n°1.

Gota n °3
Tudé? (Alejandro, c.1735 - 1800) chief (1780 - 1800)
Pitaicache? (c.1760 - 1825) chief ((1800 -1820)
Costilla (c.1780 -c.1840) chief (1820 - 1840)
Coleto Amarillo (c.1790 - 1852) chief (1840 - 1852), I think his segundo Arvizu, who was killed by Sonora Soldiers in 1851 near Janos with Geronimo's family, was the first father-in-law of Geronimo called No-po-so by the shaman.
Natiza (Eligio, c.1810 - 1874) chief (1852 - 1874)

The gota disappearred in 1874, the survivors joined the gota n°4.

Gota n°4
Jasquinachi (c.1730 - 1800) chief (1770 -1790)
Targalan (c.1750 - 1809) chief (1785 - 1809)
Chirimi (c.1770 - c.1840) chief (1809 - 1830)
Bartolo (c.1780 - c.1860) chief (1830 - 1840)
Laceres (c.1790 - 1857) chief (1840 -1857), Division's chief (1846 - 1857), older brother of Esquiriba, father of Galindo, Tonina and Juh.
Galindo (c.1810 - 1861) chief (1857 -1861)
Tandinbilnojui (Juh, c.1820 - 1883) chief (1861 -1883) Band chief (1865 - 1883)

The gota and the Nedni's band disappearred in 1883, the survivors joined gotas from other bands.

Chokonen

Gota n°1
Jasquelneté (c.1760 - c.1820?) chief (1790 - 1820)
Tuin (Vivora, c.1780 - 1862) chief (1820 - 1840), certainly son of Vivora (died 1803) Chief of the gota n°7
Esqualine (c.1800 - 1861) chief (1840 -1861) Band Chief (1851 - 1861), possibly the father of Chihuahua and Ulzana.
Kla-esch (Remigio/Chihuahua, c.1832 - 1901) chief (1861 -1883). Younger brother, by two years, of Ulzana(Julian, c.1830 - 1909). His first wife was certaily a half-sister or an aunt of Kaathenay. One of his sisters married a Pinal Apache headman named Goody. His daughter Romana married Asa Daklugie, Juh's youngest son.

The gota united in 1883 with the gota n°3.

Gota n°2
Selchidé (c.1775 - 1815) chief (1795 - 1815) younger brother of Pisago Cabezon
Cidé (c.1780 - c.1840?) chief (1815 -1835)
Tapila (c.1790 - 1851) chief (1835 -1851)
Casimiro (c.1800 - 1854) chief (1851 - 1854)
Chepillo (c.1810 - 1858) chief (1854 - 1858)
Chackone (c.1825 - c.1870) chief (1858 -1870)

The gota disappearred in 1870, the survivors joined the gota n°1.

Gota n°3
El Pisago (c.1740 - 1793) chief (1780 - 1793) father of Pisago Cabezon and Selchidé
Pisago Cabezon (c.1770 - 1846) chief (1793 - 1840), band chief (1820 -1840) and tribal chief (1830 - 1840). Father at least of Tichac(c.1790-1836), Chato (c.1795-1843), Marcelo (c.1800 - 1846), at least two daughters and by his last wife Cochise (c.1810 -1874), Juan (c.1815 -1878), a strong daughter(c.1820 - 1883), certainly mother of Atelnietze and finally Coyuntera (c.1825 - 1861), father of Chie.
Vicente (c.1790 - 1846) chief (1840 -1846), possibly a nephew or son-in-law of Pisago Cabezon.
Miguel Narbona (c.1800 -1856) chief (1846 -1856)Band Chief (1851-1856). I think he was the father of Esquine, Nahilzay and the woman Gessumaday, third wife of Cochise.
Goci (Cochise, c.1810 -1874) chief (1856 - 1874), band chief (1865 -1874) and Tribal chief (1868 -1872) father of boys Taza and Naiche and girls Zanyego, Naithlontonz, Dasdenzoos, Djataize and Zhante.
Taza (c.1840 - 1876) chief (1874 -1876). Certainly first husband of E-clah-eh and father of Dorothy Naiche.
Naiche (c.1856 - 1919) chief (1876 - 1919) Band chief (1883 -1919), considered as the last chief of the tribe (1894 - 1919). His first wife was Nah-de-yole, daughter of Eskinye.

Gota n°4
Cayetano (A spanish captive, c.1755 - 1812) chief (1785 - 1812)
Feroz (c.1775? - c.1835?) chief (1812 -1830)
Eugenio (c.1785? -1837) chief (1830 - 1837)
Yrigollen (c.1800 - 1851) chief (1837 -1851), band chief (1840-1850). His son Miguel Yrigollen was a headman of Cochise during 1860's.
Chagaray (c.1805 - 1860) chief (1851 - 1860)
Aguirre (c.1810 - 1868) chief (1860 - 1868) brother of Yrigollen.

The gota disappearred in 1868, the survivors joined the gota n°3.

Gota n°5
Capitan Chiquito (c.1720 - 1784) chief (1760 - 1780)
Chigosté (El Chiquito, c.1740 - 1800?) chief and a powerful shaman (1780 - 1795) Band chief (1785 -1795)
Tadiya? (c.1750 - 1820) chief (1795 -1810)
Nanegi? (c.1770 - 1830) chief (1810 -1835)
Carro (c.1800 - 1857) chief ( 1835 -1857)
Taces (c.1810 - 1863) chief (1857-1863)
Eskinye (c.1820 - 1876) chief and powerful shaman (1863 - 1876)
Pionsonay (Peñon, c.1830 - 1877) chief (1876 -1877), brother of Eskinye.

The gota disappearred in 1877, the survivors joined the gota n°3.

Gota n°6
Asquidenchil ? (c.1750 - c.1820?) chief (1790 - 1820)
Aquien (Matias, c.1780 - 1846) chief (1820 -1846), father of Elias (not the Chihenne).
Posito Moraga (c.1800 - c.1855) chief (1846 -1855)
Yaque (Old Jack, c.1810 - 1861) chief (1855 -1861)
Parte (c.1820 - 1862) chief (1861 - 1862)
Chino (C.1810 - 1869) chief (1862 - 1868), brother of Posito Moraga.
Cathla (Colle, c.1835 - 1894) chief (1868 -1878).

The gota united in 1878 with the gota n°1.

Gota n°7
Clis (Vivora, c.1740 - 1803) chief (1780 - 1803)
Coyote (c.1760 - c.1830?) chief (1803 - 1820) certainly a son-in-law of Clis.
EL Serampio? (c.1780 - c.1840?) chief (1820 - 1830)
Relles (c.1790 -1846) chief (1830 - 1840), I think Cochise's second wife (marriage about 1840) was a daughter of Relles.
Manuelito (c.1800 - 1849) chief (1840-1849), son of Coyote, older brother of Torres.
Triqueño (c.1810 -1855) chief (1849 -1855)
Colchon (c.1820 -1858) chief (1855 -1858)

The gota disappearred in 1858, the survivors joined the gotas n°4,5,6.

Santa lucia Gota
Asquecoga (c.1750 - 1813) chief (1785 - 1813), father of Tu-es-eh (born c.1790), brother of El Chiquito.
Kan-da-zis-tlishishen (Fuerte/Mangas Coloradas c.1790 - 1863) chief (1813 - 1863), Bedonkohe band chief (1825-1850), Tribal chief (1840 -1850). Possibly a grandson of Chafalote by a daughter.
Bedonkohe, he had four wives during his life. His first was Tu-es-eh. With her his sons were Cascos, Salvador and Seth-mooda (c.1830 - 1863); his daugthers were Dos-teh-seh (c.1815 - 1916) first wife of Cochise and Nahke-desah (c.1825 - ?) wife of Goonelah. His second wife was a Mexican woman nicknamed Carmen (who he certainly married between 1815 and 1825) and was certainly killed in 1837. With his third wife (a Chiricahua)also killed in 1837, he had other sons, born c.1830 and 1836, Cassori (Lopez) and Thastine (Tomaso Coloradas). After 1837 to replace the two killed wives, I think he married a fourth wife with she, he had a son Mangus (c.1840,1845 - 1901) and a daughter Ilthooda (c.1855 - ?), surely firt wife of Chie.
Chaha (José Mangas, c.1810-1868) chief (1863 -1868) brother of Mangas Coloradas and possibly his adopted son, after the death of their parents.
Nay-zar-zee (Gordo, c.1820 - 1882) chief (1868 - 1878)
Pedes-klinje (Chatto, c.1854 - 1934) chief (1878 -1900), son of José Mangas.

In 1863, the Chihennes' part left with Mangas Coloradas' family joining mostly Chihenne's gota n°6 and the gota disapearred in 1900, the survivors joined the Chokonen's band.

Bedonkohe

Gota n°1
Concha? (c.1750 - 1820?) chief (1790-1810)
Brazo Quebrado/Mano Mocha (c.1785 - 1845) chief (1810 - 1845), son of Chafaloté.
Chaynee (c.1805 - 1860) chief (1845-1860)
Chiva (1810 - 1887) chief (1860-1870), A White-Mountain Apache, certainly son-in-law of Mano Mocha. His son Shuiet married Naithlontonz, daughter of Cochise.
Yo-tah-ah (Bénito, c.1840 -1930) chief (1870 -1884). A White Mountain Apache in this gota and cousin of the powerful shaman She-neah.

The gota disappearred in 1884, the survivors joined the Santa Lucia's gota.

Gota n°2
Chafaloté (c.1720 - c.1790?) chief (1760 - 1790) Band chief (1770-1790) Tribal Chief(1770-1780).
Chafaloté junior (c.1750 - c.1810) chief (1790 - 1810), son of Chafaloté
Asquelité(c.1760 - 1820) chief (1810 -1820), son of Chafaloté
Tutije (c.1790 - 1834) chief (1820 - 1834). Son of Asquelité?. Looking that Mangas Coloradas considered the Sonora as a permanent enemy after the execution of Tutije, I think Tutije was a cousin of Mangas and very close to him.
Phalio Palacios (c.1795,1800 - 1861) chief (1834 - 1850), spanish litterate brother of Mangas Coloradas.
Cascos (c.1818 - 1858) chief (1850 -1858), Oldest son of Mangas Coloradas.
Luis (c.1825 - 1864) chief (1858 -1864). Probably a son of Phalio Palacios.

The gota disappearred in 1864, the survivors joined the chihennes's gotas.

Gota n°3
Mahko (El Ronco?, c.1760 - c.1820) chief (1780 -1820) band chief (1790 - 1820) father of Taklishim (Geronimo's father), at least grandfather of Nathleta (wife of Nonithian) Ishton (wife of Juh) Etson (mother of Tsinah, Fun, Jozhe) Vicente (younger brother of Geronimo)Shste (oldest sister or cousin of Geronimo, certainly grandmother of Kanseah), of the father of Perico of the father or mother of Anandhia and E-clah-eh.
Carabinero (c.1780 - c.1840) chief (1820-1830)
Teboca (c.1790 - 1851) chief (1830 - 1851). I think he was the oldest son of Mahko and uncle of Geronimo. Because he was called segundo of Mangas Coloradas among the Bedonkohes, I think the man named Goonelah (c.1820/25 -1877/78), married to Nahke-desah daughter of Mangas coloradas, was his son.
Esquine (c.1825 - 1880) chief (1851 - 1877), certainly a son of Miguel Narbona and possibly a son-in-law of Teboca.
Goyakla (El Cautivo/Geronimo,c.1823 -1909) chief and powerful shaman (1852 - 1883), grandson of Mahko and possibly of Jasquedega, son of Taklishim and Juana.

The gota disappearred in 1883, the survivors joined the Chokonen's band.

As a band, the Bedonkohes disappeared in 1863, at Mangas Coloradas' murder. Between 1863 to 1872 they followed Cochise, and after they managed by their own, independantly, following Taza, Juh, Victorio and Loco.

Future new informations will modify my guess.

Excellent investigation of which gotá or gonká belonged to each historical person, but the gonká was and is defined in a matrilineal way, the mother's family is what determines which Gonká belongs to, and that to something that is not yet understood in western culture.

[chi1]

May 17, 2022 4:01:50 GMT -5 coeurrouge said:

gota = local group (several families linked by choice or extended familiy's relationship)

NB : I will update my first reply, time to time

May be, "Clan" or Family applied.

[chi1]

May 18, 2022 8:37:58 GMT -5 coeurrouge said:

May 18, 2022 8:10:03 GMT -5 ouroboros said:

The only word for "rock" in Nde language that I know is Tsēē or tséé. But I am not a specialist, and possible the Nde have other words for "rock". Previously I thought that the name Mahko has something to do with "fire", since the "ko" essentialy means fire, but I can be totally wrong.

What could mean "mah" of "Mahko" ?

Is not rock definitely, but one possibility is a corruption from Spanish "manco" which means with no hand, either by genetics or by amputation, there were a person on the same times of Mahko that was named as "mano mocha" or "amputated hand"

[chi1]

Sept 5, 2022 2:17:08 GMT -5 ouroboros said:

Once again - coeurrouge has based his reconstruction on books, source infos, and personal deductions or intuitions. Some of the relationships between chiefs are confirmed by primary sources, some are hypothetical. There is no certainty for the Nde lineages because even Apaches weren't aware who was related to whom (there is no certainty who was Cochise's father, and Jason Betzinez knew only that Goci was related to Juan Jose Compa, who was not a Chokonen). What's more, we have problems to classify some gotas as parts of certain bands as is the case with the Aqua Nueva (mixed Mescalero-Chiricahua, offshot of Chihenne, or separate and neither Mescalero nor Chiricahua?) However, coeurrouge did a GREAT job and there is no comparable breaking of Chiricahua gotas in any scientific work as far as I know. It is a major achievement and in my opinion the best thread on amertribe proboards.

Feel free to present your alternative vision of the division of Chiriachua gotas and relationships between nantans to that presented by coeurrouge, but please, do it, instead of grumble by stating "many errors" or "I am a skeptic about your intuitions"

I agree and it will be a difficult job to overcome because N'nee do not go around shouting that Gonká belongs to, that is something very familiar, usually used to avoid intermarriage with family, that is why Bedonkohes married Chihenes for example.

[coeurrouge]

Sept 5, 2022 13:34:42 GMT -5 chi1 said:

May 18, 2022 8:37:58 GMT -5 coeurrouge said:

What could mean "mah" of "Mahko" ?

Is not rock definitely, but one possibility is a corruption from Spanish "manco" which means with no hand, either by genetics or by amputation, there were a person on the same times of Mahko that was named as "mano mocha" or "amputated hand"

I read I think as I remember in Griffen's book "War and Peace in Janos"that a a man called Brazo Quabrado apparently Bedonkohe was a son of Chafaloté (a Gileño for the spanish). I think Brazo Quabrado and Mano Mocha were the same man.
Sure the Apache had a matrineal structure but as I understand son of important man often stayed in their birth gota. It is why I tried some connections not read.
Ex: Manags Coloradas began a young chief of his woman's gota about 1813, time of relative peace since two decades. I think only a son or grandson of a very important chief could become a gota''s chief so young at this period when senior man had survived because of the peace.

it is hard to explain deductions I made by writting.

To people who undertsand spanish, the website apachéria.es had a lot mexican archives which complete or confirm english books.

[ouroboros]

Sept 5, 2022 13:34:42 GMT -5 chi1 said:

May 18, 2022 8:37:58 GMT -5 coeurrouge said:

What could mean "mah" of "Mahko" ?

Is not rock definitely, but one possibility is a corruption from Spanish "manco" which means with no hand, either by genetics or by amputation, there were a person on the same times of Mahko that was named as "mano mocha" or "amputated hand"

Definitely the identification of Mano Mocha with Mahko made by ch1 is tempting. In 1813 a Spanish expedition was send to the Mogollon country which invited a chief called Brazo Mocho (it means "Maimed Arm") to peace negotiations. W. B. Griffen, Apaches at War and Peace, p. 94 identifies Brazo as the same man as Mano Mocha. If I am not wrong, there is no mention of a chief called Mahko in the Spanish and Mexican sources (correct me if I am wrong), but he was definitely one of the most important Nde chiefs in the second half of XVIII and I half of XIX century, so the only possibility is that Spanish and Mexican officials knew him by a specific nickname - one of the possibilities is the very Mano Mocha.

Griffen argues also that Mano Mocha was one of the Nde leaders "who remained aloof from Spanish and Mexican administrators".

[coeurrouge]

yes it make sense BUT Mano Mocha died about 1845 when Geronimo was already a warrior and married. And Geronimo, born about 1823, said that he never met his grandfather Mahko... So it is difficult to say that Mahko and Mano Mocha were the same man.

[ouroboros]

Yes, it is a good argument against the identification of Mahko with Mano Mocha.

I did some reading. W.B. Griffen, Apaches at War and Peace, p. 149-50, lists the chiefs who signed the peace treaty in 1834: Juan Jose, Chino, Cigarrito, Fuerte, Handi, Manco, Mano Mocha, Pluma, Ronquillo, Teboca.

Griffen argues that: "Manco (one-handed) was never heard of again. Mano [...] was cited now for the last time".

At first, I thought that maybe Manco would be the same man as Mahco, but again considering Geronimo's birth date in 1823 it would make rather impossible to identify Manco with Mahko. Geronimo's own statement that he was born 1829 as Angie Debo showed is rather flawed.

[ouroboros]

coeurrouge

I wanted to ask you if you know something about a Chiricahua group called Tséghát’ahéńde? I have found that tribal name in the Mescalero Apache Research report: ftp.txdot.gov/pub/txdot-info/env/toolkit/415-07-rpt.pdf

They are descibed as follows:

Tséghát’ahéńde People beside the Rocks. Tséghát’ahéńde was a sub-group or band of Chiricahua Apache people. People on the side of the Rocks that lived in the Chihuahua Mountains of Arizona and Sierra Madres of northern Mexico.

EDIT:

Sept 22, 2022 18:41:22 GMT 2 coeurrouge said:
Hi, for me as I understand it was the gota I identified n°6 led by Yaque in late 1850's. After 1858, survivors of gota n°7 joined them.

Many thanks, coeurrouge!

[coeurrouge]

Hi, for me as I understand it was the gota I identified n°6 led by Yaque in late 1850's. After 1858, survivors of gota n°7 joined them.

[denis]

is there a list of native names for gotas?