Crow Feather and Walks As She Thinks

[tracyhauff]

I have traced my lineage back to the 1790s to Itazipco Chief Crow Feather, my fifth-great grandfather. I would like clarification on his relation to Walks As She Thinks, Red Cloud's mother. I have see it written that (1) She was Crow Feather's sister (2) She was Crow Feather's wife (3) She was Crow Feather's aunt. Smoke was also said to be Walks As She Thinks brother. I know that he raised Red Cloud, but was he a biological brother to Walks As She Thinks or hunka? Was Walks As She Thinks Oglala?

Thank you so much for answers!

[debstar76]

Nov 9, 2021 12:47:58 GMT -5 tracyhauff said:

I have traced my lineage back to the 1790s to Itazipco Chief Crow Feather, my fifth-great grandfather. I would like clarification on his relation to Walks As She Thinks, Red Cloud's mother. I have see it written that (1) She was Crow Feather's sister (2) She was Crow Feather's wife (3) She was Crow Feather's aunt. Smoke was also said to be Walks As She Thinks brother. I know that he raised Red Cloud, but was he a biological brother to Walks As She Thinks or hunka? Was Walks As She Thinks Oglala?

Thank you so much for answers!

I wish I could help you, but I am the same as you..all I really know, is Chief Smoke was brother to Walks as she thinks, and that Ctrow feather orposibly his brother..Walks as She thinks was his sister, and Two Cows, or white Cow woman, was his sister..it's so hard to find the researcher for all of this..

[1940utch]

This bears on the relationship between Crow Feather and Walks As She Thinks. I made similar, longer comments on the Smoke thread under the Oglala heading. This relates more to Crow Feather's family. I too am a descendant of Crow Feather #1. My great grandmother was Sophie LeCompte Ducheneaux. Her mother was Lillian LeClaire Lecompte, the granddaughter of Crow Feather #1.
I do not believe Walks As She Thinks, the mother of Red Cloud, was the sister of Smoke. Why? In giving sworn testimony of January 31, 1906, relating to the allotment rights of Peter Livermont, the great grandson of Crow Feather, Red Cloud stated: "My Uncle was Crow Feather, No. 1. . . . My Mother was a sister of my Uncle Crow Feather, No. 1." In the book, "Red Cloud - The Warrior Years", by Robert W. Larson, it is stated: Their Leader, Smoke, felt close enough to Walks As She Thinks to regard her as a sister.".
On May 17,1907, Shot In The Eye, an Oglala Lakota, testified in the Livermont case, "Crow Feather, No. 1 had three wives who were sisters. Those three sisters were daughters of an Oglala named Bad Teeth. Crow Feather, No. 1, had several sons and daughters. His oldest daughter was called Winula, (Darling). Winula was very popular among the Bows and Oglalas. . . .Crow Feather, No. 1, consented a white man whom the Siouxs called Long White Man or Long American to marry his daughter Winula. In the course of time, Winula had five daughters who were known as Angli, or Agelic; Juli or Julia; Mali or Millie; Sophi or Sophia; Sali or Sarah. Julia married a white man name Peta or Peter Livermont, and is the mother of Peter, Alexander,Henry and Ed. Livermont."
Shot-in-the-Eye goes on to identify one of the other daughters of Crow Feather. He says, "I married one of Winula's own daughters (either the interpreter or transcriber made an error or he mis-spoke. He said or meant "sister), named Ske-luta-win, or Woodpecker. . . . My wife Ske-luta-win died in the spring of 1891. In the Sioux way she was the Grand-mother of the Livermont Brothers. One of Winula's daughters, Sali or Sarah Lamorie who is allotted on Rose Bud Indian Reservation, is the aunt of these Livermont Brothers, also Wanyakapiwn (probably "win"), or Looking At, the wife of Joseph Pacer of Wounded Knee District, was one of Winulas own sisters"
So we know from Red Cloud and Shot-in-the-Eye that Walks As She Thinks was the sister of Crow Feather #1; that Crow Feather married the three daughters of Bad Teeth; that we don't know their names or which are the mothers of Crow Feather's children; that Many Pipes or Winula (Darling) was the daughter of CF (She died under the name "Iron Cedar Woman", the mother of Lillian LeClaire); that Ske-luta-win or Wood Pecker (also known as Red Bird) was a daughter of CF and the wife of Shot-in-the-Eye; and that Wanyakapiwin or Looking At was the daughter of CF and the wife of Joseph Pacer. I have some more info on CF, but I'm tired. Later.

[tracyhauff]

Thank you so much, 1940utch! This is how I have been recording my lineage and with your account, I believe it is correct.

My maternal lineage has been traced to the mid-1700s to Bad Teeth of the Oglála, and Chief Crow Feather, the proper chief of the Itázipčho. Intermarriage was not unusual among the Thítȟuŋwaŋ (Teton) Lakȟóta within the seven divisions of Oglála, Itázipčo, Mnikȟáŋožu, Sičhaŋǧu, Húŋkpapȟa, Oohenúŋpa, and Sihásapa. Crow Feather married three daughters of Bad Teeth, who became known as Three Wives Who Were Sisters. He had a daughter, Winula (Mary) Iron Cedar Woman Her Many Pipes, with one of the wives. Iron Cedar Woman is my 4th great-grandmother. She married French fur trader Oliver "Long White Man" LeClaire, and they had five daughters who, through marriage, became Livermont (my direct bloodline), LeCompte, LaPlante, Valandra, and Kensler. These generations now populate five South Dakota reservations. Crow Feather's sister was Walks As She Thinks, the mother of Chief Red Cloud of the Oglála Lakȟóta.

I am an enrolled tribal member of the Oglála Lakȟóta Pine Ridge Indian Reservation through maternal and paternal ancestors; Eagle Woman (Oglála wife of Hubert Ruleau), Wasna (Sičhaŋǧu wife of Seth Ward), Mary and Mollie Red Kettle Gerry (Oglála wives of Elbridge Gerry), Nicholas Ruleau (son of Eagle Woman and Hubert Ruleau), Leta Livermont Ruleau (daughter of Peter Livermont and Eugenia Cailloz, wife of Nicholas Ruleau), Zona Ruleau Skalinder (daughter of Nicholas Ruleau and Leta Livermont, wife of Arthur Skalinder), and my mother, Margaret Skalinder Hauff (daughter of Zona and Arthur Skalinder, wife of Sylvan Hauff).

[hreinn]

Jun 9, 2011 1:11:24 GMT -5 kingsleybray said:

I have recently found an affidavit by Red Cloud in which he states the Oglala were a junior branch of the Sans Arcs, he himself being a nephew of Sans Arc chief Crow Feather. (This implies a relationship - "brothers"? - between Smoke and Crow Feather.)

[hreinn]

Feb 28, 2018 16:22:41 GMT -5 debstar76 said:

I've always been told that White Thunder Woman. Walks as She Thinks, White Cow Win aka Iron Cane win, and Old Chief Smoke were all siblings.
Deb

[hreinn]

Nov 28, 2017 6:12:41 GMT -5 kingsleybray said:

hreinn, I delved a little deeper, and what I have is that Smoke (of the Tasnaheca-yuta band) and Lone Man (Kuhinyan band) married each other's sisters about the time the Kuhinyan band came back to the Oglalas in 1818 -- after twenty or so years "camping away from the circle". Smoke's sister was Walks As She Thinks.Lone Man's sister was Shell Earrings, Pankeska Owintkun. Shell Earrings was the mother of twin sons, born about 1819 or 1820, namely Big Mouth and Blue Horse. Walks As She Thinks was the mother of Red Cloud, born about 1820 or 1821. Big Mouth and his brother Blue Horse would have called Red Cloud cousin, tahansi.

[hreinn]

Based on the 3 quotes above, it seems that:
a) Walks As She Thinks was a biological sister of Smoke
b) Walks As She Thinks was a "sister" (aunt or some type of cousin) of Crow Feather

[hreinn]

Mar 16, 2022 16:18:42 GMT -5 1940utch said:

In giving sworn testimony of January 31, 1906, relating to the allotment rights of Peter Livermont, the great grandson of Crow Feather, Red Cloud stated: "My Uncle was Crow Feather, No. 1. . . . My Mother was a sister of my Uncle Crow Feather, No. 1."

When Red Cloud testified in 1906, he most likely spoke as a true Lakota in Lakota terms.
If Red Cloud's testimony is viewed together with the 3 above quotes, which are all based on Lakota people (Deb is Lakota and Kingsley Bray's sources are Lakota).
It seems coherent to view Red Cloud's testimony in 1906 to mean that his mother Walks As She Thinks was a "sister" (aunt or cousin) of Crow Feather, but not a biological sister.

[nape131]

Are there any lakota on this board?

[nukemm33]

Mar 16, 2022 16:18:42 GMT -5 1940utch said:

This bears on the relationship between Crow Feather and Walks As She Thinks. I made similar, longer comments on the Smoke thread under the Oglala heading. This relates more to Crow Feather's family. I too am a descendant of Crow Feather #1. My great grandmother was Sophie LeCompte Ducheneaux. Her mother was Lillian LeClaire Lecompte, the granddaughter of Crow Feather #1.
I do not believe Walks As She Thinks, the mother of Red Cloud, was the sister of Smoke. Why? In giving sworn testimony of January 31, 1906, relating to the allotment rights of Peter Livermont, the great grandson of Crow Feather, Red Cloud stated: "My Uncle was Crow Feather, No. 1. . . . My Mother was a sister of my Uncle Crow Feather, No. 1." In the book, "Red Cloud - The Warrior Years", by Robert W. Larson, it is stated: Their Leader, Smoke, felt close enough to Walks As She Thinks to regard her as a sister.".
On May 17,1907, Shot In The Eye, an Oglala Lakota, testified in the Livermont case, "Crow Feather, No. 1 had three wives who were sisters. Those three sisters were daughters of an Oglala named Bad Teeth. Crow Feather, No. 1, had several sons and daughters. His oldest daughter was called Winula, (Darling). Winula was very popular among the Bows and Oglalas. . . .Crow Feather, No. 1, consented a white man whom the Siouxs called Long White Man or Long American to marry his daughter Winula. In the course of time, Winula had five daughters who were known as Angli, or Agelic; Juli or Julia; Mali or Millie; Sophi or Sophia; Sali or Sarah. Julia married a white man name Peta or Peter Livermont, and is the mother of Peter, Alexander,Henry and Ed. Livermont."
Shot-in-the-Eye goes on to identify one of the other daughters of Crow Feather. He says, "I married one of Winula's own daughters (either the interpreter or transcriber made an error or he mis-spoke. He said or meant "sister), named Ske-luta-win, or Woodpecker. . . . My wife Ske-luta-win died in the spring of 1891. In the Sioux way she was the Grand-mother of the Livermont Brothers. One of Winula's daughters, Sali or Sarah Lamorie who is allotted on Rose Bud Indian Reservation, is the aunt of these Livermont Brothers, also Wanyakapiwn (probably "win"), or Looking At, the wife of Joseph Pacer of Wounded Knee District, was one of Winulas own sisters"
So we know from Red Cloud and Shot-in-the-Eye that Walks As She Thinks was the sister of Crow Feather #1; that Crow Feather married the three daughters of Bad Teeth; that we don't know their names or which are the mothers of Crow Feather's children; that Many Pipes or Winula (Darling) was the daughter of CF (She died under the name "Iron Cedar Woman", the mother of Lillian LeClaire); that Ske-luta-win or Wood Pecker (also known as Red Bird) was a daughter of CF and the wife of Shot-in-the-Eye; and that Wanyakapiwin or Looking At was the daughter of CF and the wife of Joseph Pacer. I have some more info on CF, but I'm tired. Later.

This helps so much! I've been tracing back my family for a long time now and when I went and looked in the Bureau of Land Management records one of my relatives Millie Luhan (Lujan) had allotted land to Edward Livermont. Millie I believe was Millie Robinson before she married one of the sons of Francisca Baca Lujan and Jose Antonio Lujan, Placido Lujan. I've seen multiple references to Francisca Baca's father being called Red Track and her mother being called Good Cow, however, due to their death dates, the information has been scarce. Francisca was noted as being called Resting on the Ground and her "sisters" were Looks at White Cow, Mary Armigo (I haven't seen her Lakota name mentioned), and Rattling. I believe they have a mother named Good Wing who was born in about 1824. I am not sure if she is the mother or not, but she was living with Samuel Little Bull (brother of Location Kills Ree) and Samuel is either brother or cousin to Francisca. Location also was called Against the Ground (the same as Francisca).

I'm just adding the above information in the event that the Livermont and Lujan connection clears anything up for anyone.

I just looked at my DNA and I can confirm that I have LeClaire, LeCompte, and LaPlante (all of which seem to corroborate an Oliver LeClaire connection). 

[Ho choa]

My 4th great grandmother is Wionoa who was Iron Cane sister. It was after I saw all the DNA connections to Smoke Iron Cane and Walks as she thinks and White Cow? that I learned they were all siblings. I believe Iron Cane and Winona were purchased by black Buffalo from a trader named Dion. Cited here anyway. When Black Buffalo offered Meriwether Lewis a companion while they were with them it is Iron Canes sister my fourth great grandmother. Her son Joseph D Lewis is very lite complected because his mother and Aunts and Uncle were of European and Native decent. They are also of Ojibwa heritage which is why Joseph Lewis could speak the Algonquian language. I was confused for some time as to why I made so many connections to Smoke, Iron Cane and Walks as She thinks descendants. I understood why my family connected to Meriweather's family because his parents are first cousin once removed on his mother's side. Meriweather Lewis not only fathered Joseph but while he was a paymaster he father two sons with Sarah Littlepage her parents were Major Littlepage and Wind walker I believe she is an Onita woman. Either way I have used Mitochondrial testing along with Y-DNA and autosomal to put together all the pieces. Not being very familiar with the written history and using DNA to guide me has probably helped because I was not trying to match the written history with the data. When Red Cloud talks about is family history, he is talking about his mother line and the Ojibwa heritage the Teton group are probably a Siouan people with ties to the Western Siouan people that were known as Saone which are now the Northern Bands of the Lakota.

[nukemm33]

Thank you for adding this Ho Choa. It can definitely be confusing, I've been chasing a lot of these family lines for years now because their either just isn't enough evidence or the names and marriages keep changing. But DNA has helped me out a lot. What you say about the Ojibwa is very true. From what I can see, my great grandmother White Cow/Good Cow was married to several men: Red Track, Bone Necklace, John Little Crow, and Old Eagle. Following the John Little Crow line, I know they were up in the Whitecap Reserve in Canada and Black Buffalo was there as well as he never came back to the US. I have family still around that area as well as in Fort Peck Montana. The best I can tell some of the family went to Fort Peck and some to Moose Woods and eventually some back to Pine Ridge for whatever reason.

And I also kept seeing the links to the Smoke family when I first started researching. I recently learned that Bone Necklace was part of Blue Horse's family,

[Ho choa]

If you are on ancestry and put Wilkie in the search for matches you will find a lot of connection. My research is based on our families DNA not on written records and other people options. Hyde's books have used the word "Probably" in every chapter on ever subject. My research uses the word facts because DNA doesn't lie. Most common mitochondrial haplogroup of Siouan speakers is of C. Only the Lakota will carry the C4C1 which is the oldest of the C haplogroups. Ironcane, Walks as she thinks, and Winona female to female descendants carry A2q and are close related to women that are descendant of a trader named Wilkie wife she was also married to a Davids. My sixth great-grandmother Angelique Michilimakina Indienne B:Bet. 1765–1770 Upper Louisiana Territory D:Abt. 01 Apr 1822 St Charles County, Missouri matches this A2q. Having this maternal line in my family twice is why I make so many connections to Ironcanes descendants.

[nukemm33]

I knew about the C (and Q) Haplogroup in general, but I didn't know specifically about the C-4C1 group. I know I have both C and Q, but I don't see a way to drill down to the C-4C1 haplo sub-group using the tool I have (Promethease). But being that I am Lakota through my father's side, I have to imagine I probably have it somewhere. For me, it was more about the actual matches I was able to trace back to Pine Ridge, Rosebud, Fort Peck, and Whitecap which have revealed so much. If I would have only gone by written accounts I would be lost (as I was in the beginning).
I looked and I have 8 distant relative matches for Wilkie. Just looking at who the matches are through I notice at least 2 of the 8 are my New Mexico family, which makes sense because although most of my DNA matches are in Denver, Colorado my specific family line moved into southern Colorado and then Northern New Mexico by the 1950s. And one of the names (Romero) is a family I'm related to on the Pine Ridge Census rolls.