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Post by Californian on Jan 8, 2021 18:40:43 GMT -5
click onto image to enlarge I think you may be right. The wooden fence and the fake rocks seen in the Barry photos turn up in Barry photos with different backdrops, but not in the Spencer photos, but then we have Hairy Chin dressed as Uncle Sam taken by Barry in 1889 (and that year has to be correct because he died shortly after the photo was taken), four years later than the Sitting Bull Combination photos... This is really odd. The only other Barry photos with this backdrop that I can access at the moment are a handful of Arikara or Hidatsa, a couple labelled Crow and the one of Gall and his family (the one in which he wears the long buckskin jacket and leggings and then strips to his breechclout)and Gall doesn't look particularly heavy so it would fit with the Sitting Bull Combination date, although there are other Barry photos of them, clearly from the same session, judging by their clothes, that have a different backdrop. Meantime, this has the look of another Spencer: Red Elk 
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Post by grahamew on Jan 9, 2021 7:50:02 GMT -5
Thanks. Much better quality
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Post by calibeachgal on Aug 2, 2021 4:59:59 GMT -5
I hate to burst anyone's bubble---but George E Spencer did NOT Photograph all these Indian pictures. They were actually done by Dakota Territory photographer, David F. Barry, and George E. Spencer simply made copies of those Indian cabinet photographs, in his Chicago, IL studio. So the Credit goes to David F. Barry, not George. You can read about this, at: FROM: clements.umich.edu/files/tinder_directory.pdfby David V. Tinder PAGE: 2361 Hope that clears up this issue. Sincerely, Vienna Spencer |
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Post by grahamew on Aug 2, 2021 9:28:22 GMT -5
Perhaps, but Barry was no longer in Dakota territory when the bulk of these were taken. It would be interesting to see how many have been published credited to Barry.
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Post by calibeachgal on Aug 2, 2021 13:22:20 GMT -5
OK, but if Barry took photos, then Spencer copied them, how could you date the images to time that allowed Spencer to have done them, when there are no dates on the photo images? Not being snarky, just trying to learn! : ) What I'm trying to say is...let's say Barry did originals in year 18-whatever and then left the territory, but Spencer then bought them & made copies in later years to sell...how would you know who it was that actually photographed the images unless you could "place" Spencer, for example IN the Dakota Territory, which since his addresses were always in Hudson, MI, or Chicago, IL, esp. in Census years--What proves he ever even Went into Dakota Territory? Are there documents, newspaper articles, or a Journal that show Spencer ever traveled there? Just wondering...thanks!!
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Post by grahamew on Aug 2, 2021 16:55:56 GMT -5
The bulk are of people who attended the 1893 exposition. Note that Tinder says he copied photos taken by Barry (as did others); this doesn't imply he didn't take any Lakota images. I wonder if his source isn't Fleming and Lusky because it's pretty much what they say. I also wonder if they've based their assertion on the similar backdrop as we mentioned above. I've seen Barry's catalogue of Indian images and, while I don't have access to it now, I don't recall these images. When I can check it, I'll get back to you unless Dietmar can first
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Post by Dietmar on Aug 2, 2021 16:56:15 GMT -5
Hi Vienna,
welcome to our boards. The point you have is worth considering and perhaps needs further discussions. I am not sure that the one sentence in the document you shared is a definite proof, although I don´t say it can´t be correct.
If Barry indeed took all these photographs, it would at least explain why the same backdrop can be seen in earlier Barry photos (see: Sitting Bull Combination of 1885) as in many of the Spencer pictures in this thread.
But like Grahame I´m sure that the latter pictures were taken after 1891. We can be absolutely sure that the ‘Fort Sheridan portraits’ were taken in that year. Most if not all other portraits show Lakota who went with Buffalo Bill on tours from 1891 on. I don´t think Spencer had to travel to Dakota Territory to get them. Those show performers visited Chicago with William F. Cody.
Remember the bulk of Barry´s 1880s portraits were taken while he was in Bismarck. No wonder the Lakota in his pictures are in the majority from Standing Rock reservation. The people in the Spencer photographs are mainly from Pine Ridge, where Cody usually hired them (at least at that time).
Although there are indeed no dates printed on the photos, there are some newspaper articles and documents (ship lists, etc.) that provide names of people of the 1891 to 1893 Buffalo Bill tours that we also find in the Spencer portraits.
Best regards
Dietmar
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I think you may be right. The wooden fence and the fake rocks seen in the Barry photos turn up in Barry photos with different backdrops, but not in the Spencer photos, but then we have Hairy Chin dressed as Uncle Sam taken by Barry in 1889 (and that year has to be correct because he died shortly after the photo was taken), four years later than the Sitting Bull Combination photos... This is really odd. The only other Barry photos with this backdrop that I can access at the moment are a handful of Arikara or Hidatsa, a couple labelled Crow and the one of Gall and his family (the one in which he wears the long buckskin jacket and leggings and then strips to his breechclout)and Gall doesn't look particularly heavy so it would fit with the Sitting Bull Combination date, although there are other Barry photos of them, clearly from the same session, judging by their clothes, that have a different backdrop.
