will the experts please inform me who these people are

[Deleted]

Is there a nagi in this photo?

Attachments:

[Deleted]

By golly by gosh! I thought I would see something by now. A bunch of people have seen this and what? No takers? It must be easy if one is an "expert" at this stuff. I mean, I do the permutations and can only see one configuration, but my "betters" tell me otherwise. And, yes, I will have to be asked to post my choice.

[kingsleybray]

I wish I could help georg, but the guy who took the photograph in 1859 unfortunately did not record the identities of the subjects in his picture. So we have to accept we don't know. There were -- ballpark estimate -- 3000 Oglala people alive in 1859 so any guess would be just that, and purely arbitrary. I agree the man on the left, holding his long-stemmed pipe to his lips is presenting himself to camera 'as a chief', you might say --- but there would have been in the range of -- ballpark again -- 40 Oglala naca and itancan (Lakota terms as you know for headmen and band chiefs) active in that period.

It would help if we could narrow down the timeline -- when in 1859 were the Bierstadt photo's taken? -- because I've done some work on the movements and whereabouts of the various Oglala bands or tiyospaye through that year. But with the evidence as it is, at the moment I'm just grateful that this little bunch of photo's exists at all. We will have to learn to be happy in uncertainty.

[allenc]

Bierstadt also me a number of Shoshone people

[Deleted]

Again, because some photograph is in the collection of a man who traveled to a place in 1859 does not necessarily mean that the photograph was taken in 1859. Photography was in use prior to that year and this man could have taken it or been given it from some archive he had visited prior to his journey west. We have to use logic here and not accept something as fact by making unfounded assumptions. Is there proof that this man took this photograph in 1859? If not, then we have to look at the evidence of the photograph itself and try to fit individuals to those in it. I have done that, but no one seems to "like" my answer. Provide a better one and I will think on it.

[pawnee]

Aug 13, 2018 17:15:21 GMT -5 @georg said:

The woman setting in the front appears to be wearing a fully beaded yoke dress. Resembles the woman in that series of Fort Laramie 1868 treaty that I have heard is the earliest known image of a fully beaded yoke dress. Aren't the Lakota well known for fully beaded yoke dresses?

[Deleted]

Good one pawnee! Yes, some positive input. I was just about to suggest that this could have been taken in 1859 and perhaps at Blue Water Creek, the birthplace of so many luminaries. If John Shangrau was born in 1852 as some suggest, then the child in the lap of the woman could be him at age seven and the woman, his mother Iwakan (Gabby), the wife of Jules Shangrau. And Julian Louis Shangrau to her right would be age nine. Clearly the man with the long pipe resembles They Fear Even His Horses as photographed at the treaty signing in 1868. And I had the one in front all wrong. Yes, pawnee, it is a woman as you suggest. A young woman, perhaps Breath Wind the younger daughter of Yellow Hair? Could the man with the shiny forehead be Sho-tah? He died at age ninety in 1864. And if it is not him, who is it?

[Deleted]

George Washington is wearing what is known as a "pectoral" or "gorget" on his chest. Notice the shape of the thing. Does that look similar to anything seen in this thread?

Attachments:

[Deleted]

If I am correct, the next year 1860 will find Iwakan (Gabby) disappeared from the scene, and her younger sister Woniya Thate (Breath Wind) married to Jules Shangrau and the couple with a new-born son, William Shangrau, who, like his elder brothers will become iyeska cinca, of those who could untie the language of the wasicu. Possibly a still younger brother, Peter Shangrau, was born to the couple some time later. Do any descendants survive? That is an unknown quantity.

[Deleted]

As I understand it, Lakhota did not call each other by names like Boy Howdy and Bo Diddley and such. A person would call people by the words that mean parallel cousin or cross cousin. That way everyone knew who was related to who. It is a relational culture where names are just labels and the familiar familial terms are custom. The wasicu have to tie identifiable names to people and date them. One who was of the long ago might have many names. He might be "curly" or "worm" one day and "crazy horse" the next and there was no numbering of years either. So and so was born in the year when something memorable happened. When asked the old ones like mila wakan knew the location by land marks and wakpa or wakpala and the year by something that happened then. And everyone knows these events by the so-called "winter counts" that was an influence of the wasicu way. "So Laughing Tree, what year was that you said you were born? And was that in Nebraska? Oh, yes, that is still the name of the river. Yes, we like those names you see."

[Deleted]

Oh, and another correction on dates, the Bill Cody website lists John Shangrau as being born circa 1854. The website also explains that the family spells the name Shangreaux.

codyarchive.org/search/result.html?q=Shangreaux,%20John,%20c.%201854-1926&sort=relevance

This link has many items about Rocky Bear the son of White Thunder who was sister to Smoke.

codyarchive.org/search/people.html?q=Rocky%20Bear&fq=-subCategory:%22Personography%22

This link that follows quotes the following newspaper article from the "Wild West" days:

"The heap biggest Indians in the aggregation were No Neck, Yankton Charley or Plenty Wolves, and Rocky Bear. These three are the head chiefs of the three tribes represented, the Sioux, the Cheyennes, and the Arrapahoes. No Neck and Yankton Charley called on Gen. Miles at his request. They were accompanied by the chief interpreter, John Shangran. No Neck is accompanied by his wife, White Buffalo Cow, and their adopted child, Johnny Burke No Neck. Johnny Burke No Neck was picked up as a papoose on the battle-field right after the battle of Wounded Knee. Chief No Neck adopted him and the name of Johnny Burke was given him in compliment to Maj. Burke, whom everybody knows.

Some of the other Indians who composed Mr. Snyder's band are Standing Bear, Little Wolf, Iron Shell, Brings Back Plenty of Horses, No Water, Little Bear, Keeps the Mountains, High Bear, Charging Crow, Flat Iron, Sees Red, Feather, Black Heart, Hand, and Hairy Shirt. A few of them have been with Buffalo Bill before, but to most of them it is an entirely new experiment."

codyarchive.org/texts/wfc.nsp01507.html