Rain-The-Face

[rodthomas]

I have been searching for the archives of photographs taken by Fansler at the 1886 Little Big Horn commemoration. The link to the North Dakota site is broken and no search results are returned. Any help is appreciated! Please email me direct at [e-mail]

Thanks, Rod...

[Californian]

dear all - I have always been intrigued at the Rain-in-Face portrait attributed to Orlando Scott Goff and I believe it is indeed Goff, not Haynes, that took the image. The backdrop and pose is somewhat similar to the more famous Sitting Bull portrait dated 31st July 1881. I have not been able to determine a conclusive date, there is conflicting information out there ranging from 1874 to the 1880's - very clearly it it a very young Rain-in-the-Face before he started to fill in physically due to weight gain. In 1982 a limited edition of re-prints were made off the original glass negative (please see below), but I was not able to determine where the actual original glass negative is kept. Does anyone know? Your second image shows a fairly young Rain-in-the-Face as well, is L.A. Huffman really the photographer? I have seen this image on L.A. Huffman stock, but it would state "published by" and not "copyright by" - and as was typical in the day I have seen the very same image published by other photographers, even D.F. Barry if I am not mistaken.  Any insights pertaining to the whereabouts of the original glass negative of the Orlando Scott image would be gratefully appreciated. 

Nov 29, 2010 10:27:13 GMT -5 grahamew said:

I'm snowed off work, so here are the rest of my Rain in the Face photos:
Haynes (I think) but maybe Goff:


Huffman:




Fiske:






Barry:




















Spencer:





(surely this last Spencer is earlier than the other two)

Unknown (Cross or Goff?) - supposed to be of Rain in the Face and John Grass, taken about 1886:




Haynes:






The World's fair photo:


A. Zeese and Co., Chicago:

[grahamew]

Whoever took the photo of Rain also took this one of Joseph (usually credited to Haynes or Goff and occasionally, but erroneously, to Barry). In this version, you can see the backdrop is the same. It's usually implied that the Rain photo was taken when he was visiting the agency before the troubles of 1876 -or even during his period of captivity. I'm not so sure. He's holding it in the Haynes picture of the Lakota leaders in the tent, which, I suspect, was not taken at their surrender (the weather's wrong, for a start) but after the winter, so the earlier photo may not be quite as early after all.

[Californian]

Nov 29, 2010 10:27:13 GMT -5 grahamew said:

I'm snowed off work, so here are the rest of my Rain in the Face photos:
Haynes (I think) but maybe Goff:


comment added 15th Jan 2019:
I am pretty sure this is a Goff photograph - I think probably taken during the time of his arrest and the episode with Tom Custer - the portrait in my humble opinion shows the most "youthful" Rain-in-the-Face of all known images, while incarcerated he may have been given a uniform jacket. Barry being the business heir to Goff's Bismarck studio of course would continue to market this photograph under his own name and then additionally other photographers would sell it on license (perhaps not) under their own respective card stock and names. Below is possibly one of the original versions and by Goff (courtesy Heritage Actions, Dallas TX):

  

[Dietmar]

Thank you Californian. That would mean the photo was taken in 1874... is that a possible date for a Goff picture?

[grahamew]

If this is the case then Goff was using the same backdrop when he photographed Joseph in 1877. Not impossible by any means and he was in Bismarck by 1873:

history.nd.gov/publications/goff-article.pdf

[Nahi]

Chief Joseph was 37 when the photo above was shot in 1877. If the photo of Rain in the Face was taken in 1874 he should be around 39 years old ( more or less the same age of Chief Joseph).
To me, comparing both chiefs Itomagaju looks quite younger than Chief Joseph. That make me hesitate about the date and being Goff’s.
But on the other hand I have found that photo with a book mark from David Francis Barry and it seems that they are the authors, taking into account that Goff was his mentor.
Here the link: ( second image)
www.welchdakotapapers.com/ngg_tag/rain-in-the-face/
So I could be wrong and he is not so young in the pic. ( or Goff shot it before he started the studio?)

[Californian]

Thanks for your comment and greatly appreciate it. Orlando Scott Goff opened his Bismarck studio in 1873, he could have made the portrait thus even earlier than the time of the known incarceration of Rain-in-the-Face. Really looking at the photograph, it shows a self-confident man in his prime - yes looks very youthful, some people do look younger than their physical age. Speaking of his age, if he really was born around 1832 he would be essentially slighly older than Sitting Bull, but to me the impression always was that he was younger than Sitting Bull. Maybe his true age is somewhat unconfirmed. I have seen numerous times that historians have made presumptions and put it into print, whereas consecutive historians simply use it as reference and thus perpetuate it. I would think that Rain-in-the-Face more likely was born about 10 years later - he is documented to have been an active participant in the Powder River War which helps narrow it a bit. There is another portrait of a younger Rain-in-the-Face, this one by L.A. Huffman, supposedly dated 1880, perhaps taken at or near the time of his surrender. But it could also date from earlier. Contrary to Sitting Bull that generally loathed any contact with whites prior to his surrender, Rain-in-the-Face regularly frequented the trading posts.

[Californian]

Too bad that Ladonna has been silent for quite a while, if I understand her earlier comments correctly, she has family ties to one of the brothers of Rain-in-the-Face and could likely offer the most authoritative comment as to his approx. birth year. In any case Nahi's observation is correct that this particular portraits seems to show a man younger than the supposed age of late thirties or thereabouts.

[wayanke]

Some time ago I was lucky to notice Rain The Face with his funny cap) on this photo of council in 1880s, may be it will be interesting:

Attachments:

[glenbow]

Great catch! I've seen this group photo before but never once detected Rain mounted on his horse. Would anyone have a year for this photo?

[grahamew]

It's supposedly at the 'trial' of sitting bull for riling up the crows during a visit to their reservation in 1886 - so, 86 or 87.

[rodthomas]

If I read the stories correctly, Sitting Bull et al visited the Crows in August 1887. The Swordbearer Affair/Crow War/Uprising/etc. started in mid-September and ended the first part of October.

Sitting Bull was tried in court over "riling up the Crows?" I had no idea...

[grahamew]

Doesn't look like much of a court but that's how I've seen it referred to. Have to admit that I thought the visit of occurred in 86.

[nicolas (carlo)]

Correct, Sitting Bull made his speech to the Crows in mid-September 1886.
The 1887 Crow Uprising is unrelated.