Did Lozen fight in the battle at Cibecue Creek in 1881?

[inde]

I was wondering if The Warrior Woman fought there. I've seen sources that say that when The Dreamer was killed and the fighting broke out, Lozen stole a number of American horses that carried ammunition. However, It seems more likely that she was with Nana and the Chihennes who survived the Tres Castillos Massacre. I know she wasn't at the massacre (It is said that had she been with Victorio, she could have used her power to locate the soldiers), but she later reunited with Nana and the survivors.

Can anyone answer this?

[dT]

I have to be honest here. And I hope this comment is not stupid.
Like a lot of people - I used to be quite fascinated with the idea of Lozen. I mean ... what's not to like? This amazing Apache "princess" who is remarkably brave and a great warrior.

However, when I read the book by Jason Betzinez ... I was surprised to discover that Lozen was not mentioned anywhere. Surely Mr. Betzinez would know all about her, because after all he was a Warm Springs Apache himself. It seems impossible that he would not mention her. So I concluded that perhaps "Lozen" is really just a myth - a case of wishful thinking by too many people. I can see no other reason for why she would be left out.

I don't know the actual truth.
But I have opened my mind to the possibility that Lozen was just a fantasy invented about Apache lore. Like a lot of other things about the old West ... the tale has become exaggerated.

all the best,
dT

[cinemo]

Hello inde,

in accordance with Asa Daklugie, Lozen was at the Cibicue Creek Battle. Asa Daklugie has reported :

"I was at Cibicu. I was just a boy and did not see much that occurred except at the camp of Nakaidoklini, and not all of that. But my father, who participated, witnessed much more than I. This is the Apache side of the story."

Please, see this link ( and book ) : www.historyglobe.com/apache/documents/doc14.htm

Furthermore has been reported, Lozen captured at that battle an army mule, loaded with ammunition.

At that time ( August 1881 ) , Lozen was not in Nana `s group. Nana was at that time on his war expedition


Hi dt,

Lozen was not a myth, but a real person. She was born about 1840, maybe a few years later.
It is said, Lozen was the sister of Victorio. But I am for sure, many rumors, regarding Lozen are only asserted.

Greetings from Germany - cinemo

[dT]

cinemo - it remains a mystery why Jason Betzinez never talked about her in his book. It seems as though she should be well known to everyone in the Warm Springs band of Apaches. Perhaps someone should ask the Warm Springs elders who are alive today to offer their thoughts about Lozen - who she really was. Maybe many myths have grown about her, or possibly things have not been put into perspective.

dT

[jasper4]

Jun 14, 2013 8:40:49 GMT -5 dT said:

cinemo - it remains a mystery why Jason Betzinez never talked about her in his book. It seems as though she should be well known to everyone in the Warm Springs band of Apaches. Perhaps someone should ask the Warm Springs elders who are alive today to offer their thoughts about Lozen - who she really was. Maybe many myths have grown about her, or possibly things have not been put into perspective.

dT

Lozen not her real name is among many who had Power yet the fact remains she was with her brother thoughout many a campigan. Jason B. was not to user friendly towards the geronimo myth nor was a defender of the last ones who brought the POW to all INDE. Thus he came to his book as a counter work or among the warmsprings there were many clans with the willow clan being the largest yet again to putt all of the different chirichua bands into one group by whomsoever is a issue which seems to make certain POVs become debatable. As I grew up in the 1950's when many of the old ones were still alive and shared oral history thus my intent is not to argue nor debate due to it is in the ear or mind of the beholder Enju7n

[dT]

jasper4 - thank you very much for your answer. things are clearer now.
dT

[Second]

Hello Jasper4! Wanted to ask you about the clans of the Warm Springs. I have never heard of them, specially the Willow Clan as being or having been the largest.
Respectfully,
Second

[jasper4]

Mimbreños (Spanish: 'people of the willows').
A branch of the Apache who took their popular name from the Mimbres mountains, southwest New Mexico, but who roamed over the country from the east side of the Rio Grande in New Mexico to San Francisco River in Arizona, a favorite haunt being near Lake Guzman, west of El Paso, in Chihuahua.

Between 1854 and 1869 their number was estimated at 400 to 750, under Mangas Coloradas (q. v. ). In habits they were similar to the other Apache, gaining a livelihood by raiding settlements in New Mexico, Arizona, and Mexico. They made peace with the Mexicans from time to time and before 1870 were supplied with rations by the military post at Janos, Chihuahua.

Within each band the family units broke off and became other clans, ie deer, red paint, juniper etc.

[inde]

Jasper

You said the bands includes the red paint. Does this mean that the name chihenne, red paint people, does not apply to all of the Warm Springs people? Also, since you seem to be very educated when it comes to this history, I want to ask you a question. Was the mother of Kaywaykla also the warrior woman who killed the Comanche who murdered her husband? In the days of Victorio, written by him, this deed was not mentioned. So maybe they were different people, but they have the same name (I dont know if I should say, for it may be disrespectful)


As for the original topic, I am convinced that the sister of Victorio was indeed real and was a great warrior.

[scout47]

Lozen, is a real person, sister of Victorio, and known as a "seer" or Shaman. However, Eve Ball, author of Indeh, more or less perpetuated, Lozen's revered status. She was not nearly as influential as most people think. The famous picture of Geronimo and "company" sitting in front of the train in Texas, always identifies Lozen, in the top right, of the picture. It is NOT her, she was already a prisoner in Florida, when that picture was taken. She was considered a woman warrior, but her lofty status, is far more myth than reality.

[dT]

thank you Scout47.
Do you know if Lozen ever married and had children? Or did she die of sickness before this was possible?

dT

[cinemo]

Lozen was never married nor did she bear any children. Lozen died at Mount Vernon Barracks, Alabama, in 1889 of tuberculosis

cinemo

[scout47]

dt, Lozen never married or had children. She died a prisoner in Alabama, of tuberculosis, when the Chiricahua were moved from Florida to Alabama. She is buried in Alabama.

[dT]

"never married or had children. She died a prisoner in Alabama, of tuberculosis"

that's a tremendous loss. very sad. not only did a great person die, but she was carrying a bloodline (shared with her brother Victorio) that was unique. such a tragedy.

sorry.
dT

[jasper4]

The woman you state is a warrior woman which you have stated(ref to inde prev post). The band was also known as the red paint people yet other names were used to describe the band or the eastern band which had within it several names. The Gila, red paint, mimbreno, all ack Juan Jose as nantan. The book stated is on biduyah and his baby sister or 'loved one' lozen is a warrior woman and diiyin person who had strong Power. She is said to have loved a warrior who came to the people known as the 'gray one' who left thus chose the path of a warrior to help her people or Biduyahs group.