Shiyo or She-o

[dado]

Hello,

we have read Kingsley "Making the Oglala Hoop" and we have learned new fascinating details to the emergence of the Oglala people.
There are still many questions that should be discussed.
Around 1800 the Shiyo were one maximum band within the Oglala Nation. But we know little about the Shiyo in contrast to the other maximum band, the Oglala proper.
In his presentation, Victor Douville has mentioned the Shiyo in the middle of the 18th Century as an autonomous band of several hundred people and as a part of the Southern Teton Nation.
In his article "Making the Sichangu Hoop" Kingsley not mentioned the Shiyo as part of the Brule tribe, but as a maximum band of the Oglala Nation (as well as Lewis and Clark and Tabeau).
According to Lewis and Clark Bad Wound was chief of the Shiyo around 1800. Kinsley calls Bad Wound as Chief of the Tashnahecha group within the maximum band of the Oglala proper.
He believes that the Shiyo separated from the Oglala tribal circle early in the 1830. The largest part shifted back to the Brule, the rest to the Oglala Proper and Kuhinyan.
Now the questions: ???
Which were the tiyospahes or the leaders in the Shiyo maximum band?
What were the roots of the Shiyo?
Were the Oyuhpe in the period before 1830 or in 1800 part of the Shiyo?

In the hope to get further opinions and suggestions,

greetings dado

[chicheman]

Hello dado,

that is a very interesting subject.

I was recalling the thesis of John H. Moore in "The Cheyenne Nation" (pages 117 - 121 / 238 - 239). Moore suggests that the Sheo - Lakota Band was an allied mixed band of Cheyennes with intermarried Sioux, but disappearing at a certain time among the Lakota bands and instead appearing as Masikota among the Cheyennes after 1838. Moore also gives linguistic evidence for this thesis, since it seems that both, Sheo as well as Masikota, are identical terms. Cal Fast Wolf, a Dakota linguist and native speaker, said that the idea is the same in Lakota as in Cheyenne. It means "Legs-drawn-up" as name for the band, Sheo being the Sioux word, Masikota the Cheyenne term (though the stem Masi (Cheyenne) being combined with "kota" which is Sioux, and there seems not to be an explanation available why this was formed out of two Languages).

Kingsley also agrees to a Sioux connection for the Masikota-Cheyenne and this is what I found here in the forum :
amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=cheyenne&action=display&thread=1259

Maybe Kingsley could help us still with that mystery somewhat ? It would be greatly appreciated.

chicheman

[kingsleybray]

Hello, friends, I do have some new thoughts about the Shiyo band and its early history, but I am just back from a trip and need a little time to sort things out. I will get back on this thread.

[chicheman]

Hello Kingsley,

take your time you need. I´m already curious on the new thoughts about the Shiyo band,
much appreciated.

chicheman

[dado]

We see the same!
As always, we are eager to Kingsley's research and analysis. Just great that we can share it.
See you soon,

dado

[kingsleybray]

I am having new thoughts about the Shiyo band.

Trader P.A. Tabeau, writing in 1804, observed that: "The Okondanas [Oglalas] and Chihauts formerly connected and living with the Ris [Arikaras], were agriculturists, but a war having come between the Ricaras and some [other] Sioux bands, these two bands sided each one with one of the opposing parties." (Tabeau's Narrative of Loisel's Expedition, ed. Abel, Univ. Oklahoma Press, 1939, p. 104.)

This passage I have long thought is reflected in the No Ears group of Oglala winter counts. Under 1767 No Ears records "Some Went Off on Each Side", a phrase I think is embedded in Tabeau's "these two bands sided each one with one of the opposing parties".

My ongoing conversations about the American Horse ledger book have thrown up some interesting new information. Under 1763 the ledger records Oyate okiju pi, the people gathered together. The pictograph depicts two camp circles joining together, and identifies the two as the Oglala and Payabya bands. The Payabya were then led by one of the early Man Afraid of His Horse/Dog chieftains.

My growing feeling is that there must be some overlap btw Payabya and the Shiyo/"Chihaut" band, and that the ledger entry memorialises the 'connection' between the Oglala and Shiyo that Tabeau heard about.

The ledger also records under 1767 how the Oyuhpe band divided from the Oglala, and went to join the Hohwozhu (Miniconjou) at their camp on the James river. This confirms, with added detail, a hunch I think I've put up on the Oglala Bands thread. The new information confirms that the Oyuhpe were originally Oglala, but most of the band sojourned with the Miniconjou from 1767 until 1835.

[grigoryev]

Hello.
But how, then, the statement that the group Payabya was created Iron Nachet?
Man afraid of his Horse mention how Kuhinyan initially.
On the other hand in the distribution of 1835 as part of Payabya were representatives Shiyo - Shell Man and White Bull.
Could a case be Payabya subgroup composed Shiyo?
And Iron Hatchet made her independent group of Oglala, when another subgroup Shiyo - Shiyo Proper (Shiyo-tank, Homna, Shiyo-suhula) went to join the Sichangu?

[kingsleybray]

all pertinent questions, grigoryev.

The American Horse ledger is clear that the Payabya existed as a band by 1763/64, and that the leader was Fear His Dog. It joined the True Oglalas that year, and settled with them at an Arikara village on the Missouri river.

I think that the band split up in the fallout from the Arikara war on the later 1760s - see above. I see the Brules as being at war with the Arikaras. The True Oglalas refused to join their Brule relatives; one band, the Oyuhpes, were offered refuge with the Miniconjou - and moved to the Miniconjou village on James river. Most of the Shiyo people moved to the Sichangu-Brule. The Fear His Dog/Horse cluster remained with the Oglalas, and became aligned with the Kuhinyan-Kiyuksa band over the frame 1770-1830. The Shiyo band then dithered btw the Oglala and Brule circles for two or three generations.

I see the Oglala tribe across 1775-1825 anchored on the Missouri btw Bad and Cheyenne rivers, two maximal bands - Oglala proper (includes True Oglala, Hunkpatila, Kiyuksa) faces west to Black Hills; Shiyo faces east from Missouri, maintains favoured campsites Sun Dance sites e.g. East Medicine Knoll.

I think Payabya was revived, renewed in some way in 1835 under the auspices of Iron Hatchet and Old Man Afraid of His Horse - part of a political strategy by Bull Bear's brothers to extend their political control of the tribal circle. Elements of the old Shiyo band, i.e. Shell Man and White Bull, were drawn into Payabya.

The 1835 Sun Dance took place on the North Platte river opposite Ft Laramie, according to the ledger. This was when the Shirt Wearers named in the Charley Tackett-Edmond Meany interview were seated - Bull Bear, Mad Dog, Big Crow, Man Afraid of His Horse. This has all been confirmed from the ledger. Now my interpretation: ;)I am sure this Sun dance was a crucial one in realigning Oglala trade politics, renewing the tribe - not least by the return of the Oyuhpe band after a wicoicage (lifetime) spent with the Miniconjou. I think it marks the final dissolution of the Shiyo, inasmuch as I see half the band refusing to follow the Oglalas southward from the Black Hills in the spring. They gravitated eastward to join-rejoin this time permanently, the Brule Sun Dance hoop on lower White river. The other half - three tiyoshpaye based round (a) Shell Man, (b) White Bull, and (c) the sons of Shoulder - dissolved their camp organization and joined the other Oglala bands (a) to Payabya, (b) possibly also to Payabya, but probably dissolves/shifts to Kiyuksa after 1841, (c) incrementally aligns to Oyuhpe.

I have had it confirmed that Shell Man, the Oglala painted by Catlin in 1832 and a Washington delegate in 1851-52, was associated with the Payabya.

[dado]

We note:
To illuminate the mixing of Cheyenne with early Tetons, following tradition should be considered:

We quote from "People often he Sacred Mountain"; Volume I, page 624ff

“Another tradition, recorded among the Southern Cheyennes, states that a girl captured from the Owu’queo, asmall Sioun tribe living on the west bank of the Missouri, first taught the People about the forty-four Chiefs governing her own tribe. Then the Cheyennes adopted this system as their own. James Mooney estimated the date of this adoption as being about 1750, soon after the Cheyenne crossing of the Missouri River.”

Next: Battiste Good’s winter count entry for 1750-51 („Killed-two-white-buffalo-cows“), may recall the seating of a cohort of Honoured Men among the Teton.

Perhaps there is a connection between Owu'queo and Hohwozhu (Miniconjou Sans Arc elements)?

Exciting is, the Assiniboine tribe not know such a system of government. It is also noteworthy that the number “four” for the Tetons plays an important role (four Honoured Men, four counselors -> wakichunze).
Based on the Cheyenne: For each of the 10 bands four Honoured Men and four additional men as counselors?

[grigoryev]

hello
In the branch "Oglala Representatives in the 1825 Treaty" new data on Shoulder family. What is known about the other famous family - Shell Man family? Who was his father, and who were his children?
If in the years 1867-1868 this tiyospaye High Wolf led, by whom he has to Shell Man?
thank you in advance

[kingsleybray]

I don't know anything to add to this yet, except I have learned that Shell Man was identified with the Payabya band. There was some kind of overlap btw Shiyo and Payabya - not a one-on-one identification, but the bands were connected and periodically nested one within another.

High Wolf was not his son.

I will try to learn more about this important leader.