Spirit World of the Chiricahuas

[dT]

Greetings - this is is a new thread that came about after Penjady made some interesting comments while we were talking about coup sticks (not used by Chiricahuas). At that time I realized that you can only get to a deeper understanding of how the Chiricahuas view life - if you also understand how they view death. So here we are talking about the Spirit World and the way the people believed that things happen after death.

Here is the question I asked Penjady.
But feel to add your own thoughts about the subject - not just what I am asking about.

"This brings up another issue that is somewhat related. How do Chiricahua's see the spirit world? Do they believe that good and bad spirits co-exist in that world ... is that a reason why "bad" things would not be discussed? What do Chiricahua's believe happens to the spirits of their enemies after a battle - if their enemies are killed? Do they believe that the spirits of all men will go on to live in peace, or that there are different destinations depending on how people lived their lives?"

thanks,
dT

[dT]

well ... the spirit world seems very quiet right now. I am guessing that if the departed spirits of Cochise, Geronimo, Juh and Lozen could speak right now - they would have plenty to say :-)

Can no-one elighten use about the Chiricahua beliefs and the spirit world? Or is this subject too sensitive for public discussion?

dT

[jasper4]

Can no-one elighten use about the Chiricahua beliefs and the spirit world? Or is this subject too sensitive for public discussion?

This statement is valid as in tradtional NDE leave those whom have crossed ALONE. Yet in this modern age where many nons NDE or the 'gravediggers' make a point of seeking knowledge of things which best be left alone. Thus I agree with the above statement Enjun

[jasper4]

Jan 8, 2013 0:51:37 GMT -5 jasper4 said:

Can no-one elighten use about the Chiricahua beliefs and the spirit world? Or is this subject too sensitive for public discussion?

This statement is valid as in tradtional NDE leave those whom have crossed ALONE. Yet in this modern age where many nons NDE or the 'gravediggers' make a point of seeking knowledge of things which best be left alone. Thus I agree with the above statement Enjun

bump due to thought this would be a topic of many inq or responses for the knowledge seekers of inde ways.

[dT]

it is an interesting topic.

however, I went away and thought about it. i realized I needed to tread carefully and very respectfully. some of these topics could be sensitive and very close to the hearts of the Nde people. also, to be honest - if you ask various Nd'aa, or people from other cultures, about what they thought of the Spirit World - then you would probably get a variety of answers anyway.

I think I was wondering in a general way - how does the traditional view of the Nde religion see the transition between life in this world, and the Spirit World later? The issue was also on my mind when I happened to be at the sacred sites at the Chiricahua Monument last year and was praying. But I can't go this year because it is too hot in late summer.

dT

[jasper4]

Aug 7, 2013 19:05:40 GMT -5 dT said:

it is an interesting topic.

however, I went away and thought about it. i realized I needed to tread carefully and very respectfully. some of these topics could be sensitive and very close to the hearts of the Nde people. also, to be honest - if you ask various Nd'aa, or people from other cultures, about what they thought of the Spirit World - then you would probably get a variety of answers anyway.

I think I was wondering in a general way - how does the traditional view of the Nde religion see the transition between life in this world, and the Spirit World later? The issue was also on my mind when I happened to be at the sacred sites at the Chiricahua Monument last year and was praying. But I can't go this year because it is too hot in late summer.

dT

Every breath is a prayer for God of all is everywhere and it is not for those whom think their way is right in whatever dogma. As in any culture different groups have many POV. In saying such the movie "The Missing" by ron howard in which two Elders from mexcalero were used to do the language, yet the film though fiction touched on many things in accordance with the ways of the NDE. Thus I asked on the topics of the owl or the bear or the snake bite or the protection of amulets, and at this point in or of this planet many whom seek shall find for faith is the pursuit of knowledge in the ways of the Lifegivr. For the god of many demands killing of innocent folks in the name of the dogma or other lunacy, which is not new for their are good spirits and bad spirit and all have Power. Enju7n

[dT]

jasper4 ... "For the god of many demands killing of innocent folks in the name of the dogma or other lunacy"

I think the problem is the spreading of the "dogma and lunacy". the sad thing is that people are willing to kill for it. unfortunately I believe there will be much more. I think you are safe at Mescalero and removed from much of the madness that will come - so you can watch from a distance. but it will be bad out in the bigger world where most people live. The world enters the Time of Tearing Apart - a prolonged period with stress, conflict, and unhappiness. Therefore each of us needs to seek our own peace and solitude where we can find it. best wishes to you and give my regards to your elders there, dT

[jasper4]

I am not in mes alero or any other POW camp. I agree with your words as all humans are alike, some are just more stupid than others or Ignorance is a equal opt employer and I have seen more than 65 winters and I fear no man for I fear only the judgement of the Almighty alone Peace

[jasper4]

Naiche knew the white people did believe in ghosts. A white lady brought her little boy to him. He could not open his eyes. He was very sick... Naiche found that the little boy had been scared and that he could not open his eyes. Naiche prayed over him and sang a song. He sang two Apache songs before the child. For two nights he prayed and the fourth night the child spoke and opened his eyes and was alright after that. Per the great granddaughter of the Nantan to myself

[jasper4]

Spiritual philosophy: For the Apaches there is two planes of existence: spiritual and material. Man is ultimately “Spirit” experiencing a time/space journey and each life is vital and needs to be relished and sustained as long as possible. Apaches believed that everything in nature was an embodiment or reflection of an underlying spiritual energy: animals, trees, rocks, all were animated by deeper... energy. The energy could either be light or dark and two-legged had to be aware of these differences. Because their world was essentially spiritual they observed innumerable rituals and taboos to influence the spirit world. For example, when harvesting mescal they offered prayers to the sun-source of fire-asking that the mescal be cooked properly. They feared lightening, the “Thunder People”, and never planted in a field struck by lightning. The Apache believed that the flint use in construction of arrow tips came from the “Thunder People”. Similarly ceremonies were performed before a hunt or raid including a sweat, absence of salt, and the night before the hunt they gathered around the fire and sang, prayed, and offered sacrifices to the spirit of the deer, antelope with the expectation that the animal would voluntarily sacrifice itself so that the band could survive. Wolves, coyotes, and foxes were considered taboo; tricksters who could bring harm and needed to be avoided. The Apaches never eat fish seeing it as a taboo related to snakes/reptiles which were often very dangerous, especially at night in the desert. Traveling at night was avoided as much as a possible because of the danger posed by rattlesnakes.
Time for the Apaches was cyclical, with peaks and valleys, and followed the seasonal movement of spring, summer, fall and winter, as embodied in Medicine Wheel. The Medicine Wheel along with number 7 captured the totality of existence including 4 directions, Ussen and the “People.”The number 4 was especially sacred as it implied basic life pattern of birth/death/rebirth as well as capturing the 4 cardinal directions, east, south, west /north; 4 colors, black, yellow, red, white; 4 seasons, spring, summer, fall, winter; 4 elements, earth, air, fire, water); 4 ages, infancy, adolescence, adulthood, elderly; 4 conditions of man , physical, emotional, mental , spiritual. The Medicine Wheel was called upon in sleeping, healing, locating things, invoking rain, planting/harvesting and was helpful in resolving clan/band relationships. Above all else the Medicine Wheel captured the underlying natural unity/interconnectedness within the web of the Universe as it provided clues to re-connecting with “Ussen” by discovering/following the moral principles of the “Red/Spiritual Path” by which Apaches learn to master darker impulses of each direction or season by living in the “heart” freeing them from fear of bringing dishonor to their family. Cochise always emphasized the importance of truth, of speaking from the heart and prided himself in never lying. Drinking tiswino, a beer made from corn, excessively especially on an empty stomach, and or drinking stronger Pulque whiskey, was very destructive to the Apache lifestyle leading many away from the “Red Road” and to family quarrels, destructive fights, death and loss of face.
For the Chiricahuas the land was “Sacred” and “Dark”, it embodied subtle energies/wisdom, good/bad, for the People to learn from. Chiricahuas protected the “People” from their enemies allowing them to see days in advance settlers or soldiers crossing Apacheria, protected them from bullets, offered acorns in winter, mescal in spring, saguaro fruit in the summer. Every rock, crevice, tree, stream held a story that was invaluable to survival and was a living testimony or school to learn from. The Apaches believed in Mountain People or Spirits that were sent to earth by “Life Giver” (Ussen The Creator) to teach the Apaches how to live peacefully and were healing spirits. Men in ceremonies wore masks (crowns) like Hopi Kachinas to take on their power. Rituals involved song, prayer and dance. The dancers invoked Spirit Deities power for healing; prophecy and ceremony. Any disturbance of the land could anger the Deity leading to earthquakes and terrible lighting storms. Cochise gained inspiration and strength from the landscape. Nature/places always called him, providing insights and direction. Yet the land held bitter memories and energy. Apache Pass was one of the worse places for him as it was there that his brother Coyuntura under a white flag was hanged. The Chiricahuas believed that one could capture the deep wisdom of the “Rock People” by sitting in silence contemplating the pre-historical figurines that dotted the Chiricahua Mountain landscape. These Rock formations existed before time and eerily held a deep truth about mysteries of life. They precipitated deep altered states of consciousness and they spoke to the listener. Cochise being contemplated by nature often sought their knowledge and direction. “Rock People”, too, played a significant role in Sweat Lodge Ceremony, which was another favorite of Cochise, as its purification/healing rites brought clarity and insight. “The Rock People” were brought in hot and placed in a pit and then sprinkle with sage and water which allowed their healing properties to penetrate the circle of two legged who participated accompanied by song and smoke. The ceremony ended with bathing in a mountain creek or stream and drinking clear water. Cochise often refreshed/renewed himself in spiritual ceremony of “Sweats” as they restored his energy and allowed him to make better decisions for the safety of his people.
There are over 30 tribes that are collectively referred to as Apache. Each have their own tribal name and languages. Most of the Apache tribes are similar in terms of their culture and spirituality. Like most Native Americans, Apaches don't separate their spiritual lives from any other aspect of their lives. NDE Elder

[dT]

jasper4 - thank you very much. that was enormously helpful. many, many things make much more sense to me now. also, the very different viewpoints between Apache philospohy and spiritual beliefs - compared to the Nd'aa world - also are much clearer. There are deep misunderstandings between those two worlds.

I recently became aware of the vision of Crazy Horse - who was a Lakota of course. So his spiritual directions come from Lakota people, but their overall appraoch as Native Americans has some similarities to Apaches. Anyway, I had misunderstood what Crazy Horse was about and what he was saying for a long time. Again, the problem is that the Nd'aa world "thinks" it knows what native americans are saying - but really the misunderstandings are huge. so when I actually realized what Crazy Horse was saying I was shocked - it was a very deep idea about the spiritual world and and life in this world. There is no way to judge these things. Are visions real, or the imagination of a man? what is faith anyway ... if we seek to understand the world that cannot be seen? but it occurred to me that I would never understand Crazy Horse by thinking about his vision on a daily basis. that only makes your head spin. maybe when I have time I will go to a natural place far away from people and meditate for a long time - and then try to understand it. other than that ... is impossible. the ideas are very deep.

dT