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Post by ladonna on Nov 17, 2013 11:51:23 GMT -5
Are you talking about Oglalas?
I said there would be 28 from the Lakota Bands but then you have to divided that into each family group
so we could have two hundred just from the Oglalas then which years
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wind
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Post by wind on Nov 19, 2013 3:20:35 GMT -5
Ladonna, you don`t want to talk? you don`t want to answer?
I have a feeling that you don`t know the answer.
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wind
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Post by wind on Nov 19, 2013 5:19:23 GMT -5
«When we were young men, the Oglala band divided into two parts, one led by Red Cloud and one by Man-Afraid-of-His-Horse, the elder. I and Crazy Horse stayed with the part led by Man-Afraid-Of-His-Horse. Later this half subdivided again into two parts. I stayed with the more Northern half of which I and Big Road, and later Holy Bald Eagle and Red Cloud, were appointed joint Chiefs ("shirt wearers", so called from a particular kind of ceremonial shirt worn by this class of chieftain as insignia of office).
Crazy Horse remained with the Southern quarter of the tribe. The council of this division awarded the chieftainship to Crazy Horse, American Horse, Young-Man-Afraid-Of-His-Horse, and Sword. It was many years after our first battles before we were made Chiefs. A man had to distinguish himself in many fights and in peace as well before he could be chosen as a Chief». (Hinman interview with He Dog, Oglala, S.D. July 7, 1930 )
It gives us 8 Oglala Shirt Wearers at one time.
He Dog speaks about Red Cloud here. Is it the famous Red Cloud? I think Hyde wrote (I may be wrong) that Red Cloud wasn`t a Shirt Wearer.
«There is an outfit called the White Horse Riders or the Short Hairs. (The Chief's society in the Norther Division of the Oglala tribe was called the Short Hairs; that in the Southern or "Red Cloud" divisions, the White Horse Owners) They are the ones that decide who are to have the ceremonial shirts. When a Shirt Wearer died or broke his oath, the shirt was returned to the White Horse Riders or the Short Hairs. Those chose who was to have it next». (Hinman interview with He Dog, at Oglala S.D . July 13th, 1930 )
We know that Crazy Horse broke his oath and the shirt was taken from him.
How many more cases like that are known?
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Post by ladonna on Nov 19, 2013 11:07:27 GMT -5
Ok! I see you only want Oglala!
That is what i wanted to know just a little more defining who you were talking about the Lakota Nation is large
what is see is many historian want to talk about only the Oglala as the Lakota when they are but one band of the nation.
Here are my Shirt wearers
We have
Rain In The Face
Thunder Hawk
Iron Dog
Did Not Butcher
Male Bear
Elk Nation
White Horse
One Bull
Eagle Boy
Resebud
Old Bull
Bobtail Bull
Red Legs
Little Eagle
Circle Eagle
Bear With White Paw
Makes Enemy
Charging Thunder
Spotted Horn
Red Horn
Brave Thunder
His Horse is Looking
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Post by ladonna on Nov 19, 2013 11:09:46 GMT -5
I know of a few cases with us that shirts were taken away
two other cases for running off the other mens woman
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wind
Junior Member
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Post by wind on Nov 19, 2013 11:14:25 GMT -5
Ladonna, thank you.
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wind
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Posts: 53
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Post by wind on Nov 19, 2013 11:40:30 GMT -5
What about Red Cloud?
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wind
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Post by wind on Nov 19, 2013 11:44:46 GMT -5
I wonder if Little Big Man was a Shirt Wearer.
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Post by ladonna on Nov 19, 2013 14:41:16 GMT -5
i dont do Oglalas maybe Kinsley can help you
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Post by kingsleybray on Nov 19, 2013 15:44:51 GMT -5
George Hyde, in RED CLOUD'S FOLK, p. 243 n., says that Little Big Man "was a shirt wearer in Crazy Horse's camp."
The shirt wearer status is a tricky one, because hair-fringed shirts were worn by a wide range of Lakota leaders - war-party leaders (blotahunka), tribal chiefs (wichasha itanchan), camp leaders or Deciders (wakichunze), and head akichita, all these wore hair-fringed shirts. According to Amos Bad Heart Bull's pictures of warrior society regalia, the whip-bearing officers in the Strong Heart, Sotka Yuha, and Ihoka societies all wore hair-fringed shirts. All in addition to the classic Shirt Wearers (I use upper case to distinguish) like the cohort invested with Crazy Horse in 1868.
About Little Big Man - my hunch would be that he was a warrior society leader, and probably connected to the Strong Hearts. In 1877 he was one of the four wakichunze or Deciders named by the council of the Northern Oglala (Crazy Horse's camp, in Hyde's phrase).
So it's not easy to say who were Shirt Wearers. If we look at the era from the late 1850s through mid-70s, I would say the following:
Southern Oglala: Bad Wound and Little Wound, later augmented by Big Brain, Whistler, and Slow Dog.
Northern Oglala, Man Afraid of His Horse village, chosen by Short Hairs society 1868: Young Man Afraid of His Horse, American Horse (divested 1876), Sword Owner (divested c. 1875-76?), Crazy Horse (divested 1870).
Northern Oglala, Red Cloud village, chosen by White Horse Owners society 1868: Red Cloud, Black Twin; also He Dog and Big Road (actually wakichunze?)
Miniconjou, invested 1853?: Lame Deer, Fire Thunder (latter died c. 1865, succeeded by Black Moon).
Sans Arc, invested c. 1859: Black Eagle, Blue Coat, Elk Head, Looks Up.
Hunkpapa: Black Moon
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Post by kingsleybray on Nov 19, 2013 15:59:09 GMT -5
For the Upper Brule, we have an interesting statement by American Horse (Oglala) to Judge Ricker in 1906. He stated that at the 1875 Black Hills Council himself, plus Young Man Afraid, Sword Owner, and Hollow Horn [aka Spider, Red Cloud's half brother] were placed on duty to keep order by the Oglalas. In other words the 1868 SW cohort less Crazy Horse (divested in 1870 and of course living in the non-treaty camp - so not available for duty), plus Spider.
AH then says that four Brules were assigned by Spotted Tail to the same duty: Crow Dog, Black Crow, Looking Horse, Big Star.
Possibly they are Upper Brule Shirt Wearers; possibly they are akichita officers. And possibly these statuses blur more than we'd like them to do.
There is a clear sense in which SWs fulfilled this role of tribal leadership during the period (weeks, maybe months) that the tribe was assembled; but that they were drawn from the akichita leaders, and when the tribe was dissolved continued to act as akichita within their bands. One or THE reason they were chosen to aid the tribal chiefs was because of their influence in the warrior societies.
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Post by ladonna on Nov 19, 2013 21:49:34 GMT -5
thank you my friend
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wind
Junior Member
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Post by wind on Nov 20, 2013 9:55:21 GMT -5
i dont do Oglalas maybe Kinsley can help you Here are my Shirt wearers Ladonna, forgive me for asking too many questions, but what do you mean by YOUR SHIRT WEARERS? What is your tribe and your band? As I understand, the names you gave are not Oglalas? |
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Post by ladonna on Nov 21, 2013 8:18:22 GMT -5
Hunkpapa and Shisapa Lakota and i hope you know i was kidding
Kingsley knows the Oglalas more than i do
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Post by ladonna on Nov 21, 2013 8:19:52 GMT -5
The Oglalas are the largest of the Lakotas but they are not the only one
We all have Shirt Wearers
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