Shirt Wearers

[wind]

Hello!
Can anybody help me with the Lakota word for "Shirt Wearers"?
Was there such a word or is it just English way of naming the chiefs of special rank called some other way ? Maybe it is "Wakichunza" ?

"Ogle" is "shirt"
"Un" is "to wear"
"Wichaphaha Ogle" is "the shirt with hair (with scalps)"


Thank you for helping.

[cinemo]

Hi wind,

as far as I know, the Lakota word for "Shirt - Wearer" was > Ogle Tanka Un <

Greetings from Germany - cinemo

[wind]

Ogle Tanka Un

To Wear Big Shirt?

It means that this shirt was not only with human hair, but was big, long?
Well, maybe. It had to be a special kind of shirt.

Thank you, Cinemo.

[tomv]

Hi, Wind.

According to Thomas Powers in his "The Killing of Crazy Horse" it's "Ongloge Un".

TomV

[lgarcia]

Wakicunza is the name of the man who wears the shirt.
Wa = noun marker Kicunza = to decide = A decider.
Ogle = a coat, shirt (covering for the body).
I don't know the name of the actual shirt.
Two are painted Red and Blue, the other two are yellow and green.
Louie

[nicolas (carlo)]

Louie:
To my knowledge the Wakicunza were, as the translation implies, the "Deciders", essentially the camp administrators who were appointed to decide on matters relating to camp movement, the sun dance and communal hunts, eg. only civil tasks. Usually four in total per band/division, they were often older headmen, in office for one year; they were not the same as the Shirt Wearers, who had executive authority on all band/division matters, including war.
Carlo

[wind]

Let`s put it this way: nobody knows exactly what is Wakicunza and what is a Shirtwearer. We can only guess, but we do not know.
Shirtwearer was some kind of a chief, but this kind of a chief was gone from tribal life in the end of 19 century. For example He-Dog, a Shirtwearer, was not needed in his tribe as Shirtwearer after surrender in 1877. During his life nobody asked him what was the difference between the chiefs, nobody asked him what was the Shirtwearer.


(I hope you`ll forgive my poor English)

[ladonna]

Aug 29, 2012 4:26:11 GMT -5 wind said:

Let`s put it this way: nobody knows exactly what is Wakicunza and what is a Shirtwearer. We can only guess, but we do not know.
Shirtwearer was some kind of a chief, but this kind of a chief was gone from tribal life in the end of 19 century. For example He-Dog, a Shirtwearer, was not needed in his tribe as Shirtwearer after surrender in 1877. During his life nobody asked him what was the difference between the chiefs, nobody asked him what was the Shirtwearer.


(I hope you`ll forgive my poor English)

I thought you was asking about the word?
I know what a shirtwearer is according to my people
and he was not a chief.


Political leaders were members of the Naca Ominicia society and decided matters of
tribal hunts, camp movements,
whether to make war or peace with their neighbors,
or any other community action.
Societies were similar to fraternities; men joined to raise their position in the tribe.
Societies were composed of smaller clans and varied in number among the seven divisions.
There were two types of societies:
Akicita, for the younger men, and
Naca, for elders and former leaders.

Akicita societies

Akicita ("warrior") societies existed to train warriors, hunters, and to police the community.
There were many smaller Akicita societies, including the Kit-Fox, Strong Heart, Elk, and so on.

Naca societies

Leaders in the Naca societies,
Naca Ominicia, were the tribal elders and leaders, who would elect seven to ten men, depending on the division, each referred to as Wicasa Itancan ("chief man"). Each Wicasa Itancan interpreted and enforced the decisions of the Naca.

The Wicasa Itancan would elect two to four Shirt Wearers who were the voice of the society.
They settled quarrels among families and
also foreign nations.
Shirt Wearers were often young men from families with hereditary claims of leadership.
However, men with obscure parents who
displayed outstanding leaderships skills and
had earned the respect of the community might
also be elected.

A Wakincuza ("Pipe Holder") ranked below the "Shirt Wearers". The Pipe Holders regulated peace ceremonies, selected camp locations, and supervised the Akicita societies during buffalo hunts.

The shirtwearer became the Indian police on the reservations after 1880s

[lgarcia]

Thank you for the information or should I say setting me straight.
The word Naca is a loan word, I think it is Cheyenne or Arapaho for chief / leader.
I know that much of what is attributed to Lakota / Dakota was taken from the Cheyenne way back in the 1600's or before.

I had better stick with the Dakota whose government was much simpler -
10 wicastayatanpi (honored men) an announcer / speaker for them (Eyanpaha), four policemen (Akicitapi) (two wayutanpi) virgin boy waiters who served the food and prepared the smoking pipes (badges of office), basically go-fer's for the chiefs.
This is all I know and I am sticking to it ha-ha,
Louie

[ladonna]

it is Cheyenne back when we first had the alliance with them
i was not correcting u Mr Garcia just responding to wind

[wind]

Thank you, Ladonna.

Now it is clear. And because you know such things, I want to ask a little more.

The shirtwearer became the Indian police on the reservations after 1880s
Does it mean that the shirtwearers were the leaders of Indian police in reservations?

And one more thing.
I read many times about the speakers for the chiefs.
What does "the speaker" means? Does it mean that, Red Cloud, Crazy Horse and others did not speak at all during councils, was it a rule or the speakers were needed for special events? Why the chief could not speak himself?


Thank you

[gregor]

I just want to add a little bit to the previous members. This is what the Rosebud Sioux Tribe says with regard to communities and leadership:

" The earliest communities known to the Lakota people were the tiospayes and there were many. A tiospaye comes from ti (dwelling) and ospaye (a small part of the whole), a residential unit or an extended families. Four to seven families made up a tiospaye and four to seven tiospayes made up an ospaye or band. Four to seven ospayes made up a tribe. The tiospaye was once the premier political unit and by 1830’s, it lost its political status to the ospaye or band system. A tiospaye leader was a naca (from nata heca, "he is the head") or often called tunkasila (grandfather). One the other hand, an ospaye (band) leader was an Itancan (spokesman) or chief. Nacas were always hereditary and served for life while Itancans were selected by the tribal council."

--> www.rosebudsiouxtribe-nsn.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50&Itemid=57

I read somewhere that the nacas where also called tezi tanka (Big Bellies) in past times. I think that was a nickname for the older celebrities, or?

Greetings from Germany - Gregor

[kingsleybray]

Thanks for this illuminating discussion, everyone. Louie, could I ask you about the word naca (pronounced na-cha, for people unfamiliar with Dakota-Lakota language; the letter -c- always represents a -ch- sound)?

You mention the Teton (l-speaking, Lakota) picked up this term from the Arapaho or Cheyenne. Simple question, did the d-speaking Dakota not use this term at all?

thanks again

Kingsley

[ladonna]

Aug 30, 2012 6:56:45 GMT -5 wind said:

Thank you, Ladonna.

Now it is clear. And because you know such things, I want to ask a little more.

The shirtwearer became the Indian police on the reservations after 1880s
Does it mean that the shirtwearers were the leaders of Indian police in reservations?

And one more thing.
I read many times about the speakers for the chiefs.
What does "the speaker" means? Does it mean that, Red Cloud, Crazy Horse and others did not speak at all during councils, was it a rule or the speakers were needed for special events? Why the chief could not speak himself?


Thank you

No; what i said is they became the Indian police not the leader of the Indian police. I can not talk for the Oglala, but i can talke for the Hunkpapa and Sihasapa. All the Itancan-Chief spoke for themselves in council but when the shirtwearer were in the communty or village that they would carry out order or rules from the chiefs they would have the authority from the chief to correct or displine people who were not following order of the camp.

[lgarcia]

Ladonna:
I didn't think you were correcting me. I may have chose the wrong words, I should have said now I understand better.
Kingsley:
As far as I know (what do I know?) the Dakota didn't use the term Naca.
I once looked this naca term up in a Cheyenne dictionary that I bought at Dull Knife College- there it was = chief or leader, that was years ago, so I am fuzzy on the details.
You have described to me the early interaction between the Dakota and Cheyenne probably going back into pre-history. So the naca term may have been dropped from the Dakota language recently (meaning 100 years) especially since the Cheyenne went west and the Dakota remained close to their Minnesota homeland.
Louie