Lozan

[jasper4]

Aug 7, 2012 12:42:51 GMT -5 dT said:

as far as that photo goes - one thing that does support the possibility that the image is Lozen ... is that she does appear to be beautiful. And that is consistent with all the legends about Lozen. I am just going from memory, but wasn't Lozen directly related to Victorio? Perhaps his sister or cousin? I wondered sometimes why Lozen did not find a husband amongst the warriors who were with this band. But maybe her direct relationship with Victorio - meant that no-one felt comfortable being close to her. Or perhaps her special gifts (such as predicting the movement of enemies) meant that she was held in special high esteem - and hence beyond normal relationships.

Lozen as her real name will be forever kept from the public was Biduyahs little sister. This photo which I know was shown to many who were born POW's and many verify that it is her. While many out of the band say different thus the issue or the mystery the whites and others want to append or use as some magical mystery tour or sideshow on the NDE. We all have POWER all as in human beings, ie joan of arc etc etc. I dont intended to debate any issue I know what I know through folks no longer living ans thsoe whose Power I will pass and or take to my place in the spiritworld, or as He who yawns stated We are All children of one God. I enjoy every detail from this outstanding site, done with respect and measure of history of group of NDE who fought as all would to be FREE. My cuz Mithlo knows as well as I that many factions of NDE have or still keep old issues alive by the acts of a few, in a sense that All had to suffer but again that is history and the moral of history is for the present day to learn from it and not repeat it or again Peace

[jasper4]

Aug 6, 2012 18:22:52 GMT -5 kayitah said:

I guess you mean this photo...

It was long thought that this woman is Lozen, but in fact it is Bi-ya-ne-ta, Perico's wife. Lozen was probably sent to Florida with Loco's group or another man's band living on the San Carlos Reservation at the time, since she wasn't with the last group that surrendered to General Miles on September 4, 1886 at Skeleton Canyon.

Lozen was with Nana the old diiyin not with Loco group, as Loco though warmsprings had always wanted no issue with the whites or his was the band which geronimo and naiche took by force at one breakout thus Loco had standing issues with the ones who were 'Broncos" or troublemakers as many Nde saw the writing on the wall which would have matter NOT under miles a liar, bigot, and who at all costs made an example out of all rather than keep his word or treaty with geronimo and others like Naiche thus again what treaty has the white eyes ever kept with any tribal group. It is what it is manifest destiny or justification by one group to the mastery of another group whose numbers and or culture meant little or nothing to the europeans, no hate no guilt trip just history or the duality of men Peace

[dT]

jasper said ... "thus again what treaty has the white eyes ever kept with any tribal group"

Yes ... I understand and no harm taken. I do agree with what you said.
But I want to add this - and hope it comes across.
Soon the white eyes will break the treaty with the white eyes.
They will break the treaty with themselves.
You will know when it happens - because of great hardships and much internal disputes and anger that will occur amongst the white eyes themselves. It is coming ... and soon.

I will travel soon to the traditonal place of the Chiricahua for deep prayer. And this subject, along with past injustice, will be in those prayers.

dT

[jasper4]

traditonal places of the Chiricahua of which they are many and I offer pollen and prayer for your safe journey Peace

[dT]

jasper ... thank you. Your thoughts are very much appreciated.

I have learned that the traditional and sacred place (Chiricahua National Monument) did have some bad wild fires. Perhaps a year or two ago. I did not know that. While i am out there, I will begin the process of re-seeding the Earth. I will gather plants from surrounding mountains in Arizona, and even as far as California, and plant the seeds carefully into the ground at the monument (with water). So this process will help to re-build the Earth, and it will allow new plants and trees to grow quickly. Normally I would allow the process of restoring the Earth to be carried out by natural processes. In time, of course, the Earth can heal itself. But it is my judgment that time in the future is different than the past ... the Earth is changing in many ways because of impacts by humans. Therefore, for this reason I choose to help the place of the Chiricahua to grow back quickly. And hopefully many trees and plants will become abundant there - and so animals and birds will re-establish their homes. My prayers will talk to God about injustice from the past - but also the hope that one day Chiricahua will call that place home again. Injustice can be overturned - if we choose to make it happen.

I wish I knew more about the many rock pinnacles in that Chiricahua monument. No doubt the tribe knew them all very well. Perhaps many of them had traditional names, and some had special purposes. I will pray on top of some of them. I hope the Nde people keep these legends and knowledge about that area alive.

my best wishes,
dT

[jasper4]

You welcome for the words. Now I hope your journey is safe, and to be honest the area of which you speak of is Naiches band or the western band. I am from the eastern band the of of Juan Jose and Mangas and Victorio which there lies one big difference as in ojo caliente and southwestern new mexico or the black range along what is now I-25 and the west side of it. Into the Gila natl park area, no matter but it is an example of the different bands within the NDE as for some issues of who did what and how many suffered from the actions of a few. No matter for it is for the ones still alive to carry on with the culture and that is what is important but the language is dying the young see no value in it, yet it is alive and will be forever alive by the young who see the traditional value of ones culture or the ones who have not lsot hope nor pride in being NDE. Thus I have spoken enough on the topic back to the journey be safre be wise and have a great trip and best wishes to You Jasper Peace

[dina]

Aug 6, 2012 19:48:11 GMT -5 dT said:

kayitah ... thanks. I think you must be right. that is probably where I saw that information.

I have long wondered why Geronimo surrendered everybody in his group when he signed the papers for General Miles. Or I suppose you could say - why did they all surrender with Geronimo? If I had been in Geronimo's shoes, I would have given every warrior the chance to surrender or escape - based on their own decision. You have to wonder why some did not escape and take their own trail? Miles would never have caught them all - if they had separated.

But perhaps there were circumstances then that we don't understand now.

Geronimo did not surrender all others. Actually, he was one of the last to surrender, after he understood that he has no warriors left with him. Each one decided for himself. (Two families ran away). They surrendered when Lt. Gatewood explained that their families, which were captured soon after the outbreak, were sent to Florida and the only chance for reunion was to surrender.

[Tsunami]

Hello jeroen,

I saw a painting of Lozen that I would like to use for my website, are you the artist and if so how do I get permission to use this painting