Ulzana's Raid (the movie)

[pullingup]

We need some clever and opinionated Apaches to rip apart these old movies in the style of Mystery Science Theater. I think it would be hilarious. Rating something as a good movie because it portrays Apaches as human being where previous movies did not doesn't make a movie good, especially when the non-Apaches in the same movie are unquestioningly assumed to be human. Using old grade school rating it means going from an F to a D minus. We have a long way to go to get to A plus territory.
a lot of people think Apaches believed they gained power by torturing people because of that scene in the 'Ulzana's Raid' movie, whereas that was made up by the movie people. That scene was copied to the more recent Geronimo movie as an homage to the Ulzana's Raid movie, thus promoting and perpetuating misinformation about Apaches. And then audience members spend the rest of their lives believing it. And Apaches have no way of correcting the widespread misinformation. I tend to agree somewhat with inde

[Mithlo]

AMEN!!!! I tend to agree somewhat with Pullingup, and I would be first in line to rip apart "Ulzana's Raid" and cast it into the fire!!!!

[inde]

pullingup, you know what you are talking about. I really like the idea of historical movies that depict native peoples (especially the Apache), but I despise the fact that virtually all of the ones that have been released are far from accurate or have significant flaws. I wanna see these old movies analyzed thoroughly like pullingup was talkin about. I also have issues with the more recent Geronimo movie. It is historically inaccurate even though it tries to portray Apache people in an ok light. There are many chronological errors and lame scenes. Like the scene when Lt Gatewood finds the murdered woman and man in the stagecoach and Davis said "they didnt have to kill em just to get their horses" and the scene is all sentimental. The context for Apache brutality is not depicted or conveyed well in my opinion in any film. I have never heard of a movie that thoroughly depicted the terrible conditions on the San Carlos Reservation that the Chiricahua had to endure. There was disease that claimed many lives, lack of rations due to shady agents that lead to starvation and lack of clothing, and the over all psychological effect of losing the land of the Chiricahua Rez. Things like this needed to be shown if you're gonna show Apaches murdering and pillaging white people and their settlements. Although raiding was part of the culture (which is in fact due to the presence of brutally racist Spaniards and the harsh terrain of the desert), the Apache war of the late 19th century was for the Apache, a war driven by justified animosity; it was a very depressing time for them. Their very survival was at risk and when I say survival I dont just mean staying alive, I mean maintaining pride and identity and culture. The Apache were fueled by grief and rage caused by the scores of atrocities. The late 19th century was a time when so many had died and suffered, there was so much treachery and deceit. The men were as Geronimo stated “reckless with our lives, because we felt that every man’s hand was against us. If we returned to the reservation we would be put in prison and killed; if we stayed in Mexico they would continue to send soldiers to fight us.” The murders of the Army cannot be justified for they were committed in the name of manifest destiny (a euphemism for white imperialism). Even so called compassionate men like Gen Crook harbored racism in a paternal and patronizing way (and Gen Crook still willingly represented white imperialism). The Apache had seen their very existence fading, this fueled their animosity. Im sure many of you have read Indeh by eve ball, so I don't understand why you continue to praise films like Ulzana's raid (the film really left out a lot).

[dT]

"We need some clever and opinionated Apaches to rip apart these old movies in the style of Mystery Science Theater. I think it would be hilarious"

it WOULD be hilarious.
you guys should really think about doing it. :-)

I do think that the director for Ulzana's Raid was trying to probe deeper issues. But when I think about it - Yeah it's still very one-dimensional in the treatment of Apache's. The basic problem with Hollywood is that they always want to depict "good guys" versus "bad guys". It's always something with that kind of theme when an action movie is made. So if they decide to make the cowboys or the cavalry as the "good guys", then guess who winds up as the "bad" guys?? Also, if you've noticed Hollywood never shows deep character development for "bad guys". it's always shallow, no matter who's depicted. So the Nde people wind up getting the short end of the stick in terms of research and realistic portrayal.

But I still love the idea of Apache Science Theater.
that might be a real winner!
HAHAHA !!!

dT

[jasper4]

Reality is or was it was a movie for show or to get money. Plain and simple thus how can it be used as anything but fiction on a topic which has many POVs. Some like to play the devils advocate or seem to be negative or try to expend alot of info as to be projected as what experts, or this all have POV for whatever reasons, now as for hype the movie taza depicted by rock hudson in which he kills Naiche, or a winner of stupid was the geronimo epic where chuck connors plays the Diyyin and uses the hollwood hype of LIES to show the noble red man. Point POWs for 28 years of a group of NDE who gave no quarter nor asked for quarter, yet sought what all seem to want Freedom.

[Mithlo]

I agree with my Cuz, Jasper4, completely!!!! I must speak it in my own words! So far....I have yet to see a movie.....a book.....or an artist/painting that depicts my people with much truth nor historical accuracy. Seems they always choose the path of "catering" to a audience of "white folks" and their lust for action and adventure....plus their never-ending greed for the "Almighty"!!!!............."Almighty DOLLAR" that is!!!! And it never fails....at some point somewhere along the way....Truth and Fact wound up on the cutting-room floor....or just chunked in the trash altogether!!!!
That is.....until recently, when I was not only "suprised" but somewhat silently humbled and proud of a young man's hard work and determination with the documentary film "2 year promise" !!!! My words go out to Enjady........"FANTASTIC JOB"!!!!.....Thank you!!!! Mithlo.

[dT]

"Point POWs for 28 years of a group of NDE who gave no quarter nor asked for quarter, yet sought what all seem to want Freedom."

and the path forwards - where does it lead? what do you say??
dT

[happyjack]

I live near the Dragoons in southern Az. A friend of mine from the Chiricahua Nation was walking about those mountains. He found a disc with faded paint. I can't remember what it was made of. He asked elders what it was. He was told in the old old days these were worn to show which sub group of a tribe that person was from. In the CS Fly photos Geronimo wears similar, discs on his coat. Geronimos were a sort of modernized version more as decoration than as an identifying tool. The reason I mention this is because one of the Chiricahua characters in Ulzanahs Raid is wearing a pair of beaded identifiers. I think it is really obscure but interesting none the less.

In The Missing, Tommy Lee Jones character is shown cooking and eating fish. Not very traditional for someone raised in that culture.

A definitive movie about Chiricahuas has yet to be made.

[dT]

happyjack - you live in a slice of the Old West. it must be a good time. I was out in So. Arizona last summer - very hot at that time. I wish I'd had more time to explore those places. same goes for Tombstone and Bisbee ... wish I had more time - although they're touristy I'd like to see more. thanks for the note.

i do think the Chiricahua's and the Warm Springs folks on this forum are right. Hollywood tends to depict them in a very one-dimensional way. something about the "Apache Wars" has embedded itself as a part of popular American media culture, and it's nearly impossible to eradicate those impressions now.

dT

[happyjack]

Thanks for the reply.

[[e-mail]]

Can anyone help???

I would like to know the name of the canyon..of the last battle with the Apaches..in Tucson AZ with 'McIntosh" (Burt Lancaster).

I am in AZ for awhile and would like til visit there.

Ulzana's Raid

Thanks for the help if possible.

[kayitah]

The movie was shot at Coronado National Forest AZ, Nogales AZ, and Valley of Fire State Park NV. Unfortunately, I do not know the exact locations.

You might want to ask a movie buff or maybe Bob Boze Bell, executive editor of True West Magazine, knows A LOT about the southwest. He's the first one that comes to mind, he has a vast, impressive knowledge of the west, its history, and its landscape.

Of course you can also contact Coronado National Historic State Park and see whether they have something in their archives.

I'm sorry I can't help you any further. Would be interesting to know the name and location of the canyon, though, and I'd appreciate if you let me know if you find more information.

I keep googling and contact if you find more information.

For now I wish you good luck and a great time in the Red Rock State!

[dT]

hlm241 - you can go there. but there are much better places. try going to the Chiricahua National Monument or the Cochise Stronghold. both are very beautiful!!

dT

[kayitah]

Cochise Stronghold is a true gem. It's a wonderful place, I felt so much energy up there.

Some ideas for beautiful spots and interesting things to see:

- Sedona and its redrock country is an absolute must - one of the most beautiful spots I've ever been to. Slide Rock State Park is not far off, google it. It's a unique natural swimming pool which in summer months attracts a lot of people and is often overcrowded. Since March is too cold to go swimming anyway it's probably not high priority.
- Fort Bowie National Historic Site near Willcox
- Fort Verde State Historic Park; very informative and interesting, lots of info about the Apache scouts. The staff is extraordinary (and I mean extraordinary) nice and helpful. They're never too busy to discuss history or answer questions
- Apache National Forest, Pinetop Lakeside and adjacent Fort Apache Rez
- Visitor Centre at San Carlos - it's not very big but director Herb Stevens, a Dilzhe'e (Tonto Apache) is such a humble, knowlegeable and colorful person. I only made good contacts at San Carlos anyway. San Carlos Cafe at San Carlos Avenue is a good place to eat. Extremely friendly personnel and good, freshly made food. Apache Gold Casino & Resort is the only hotel I found at San Carlos. Very nice personnel as well, great standard and affordable. I paid like $90 for a two-bed room (incl. breakfast) and amazing panorama view to the Dragoon Mountains.
- The Superstition Mountains with its lore about the Lost Dutchman mine
- The beautiful Mazatzal Mountains
- if you go to Tucson, visit nearby Fort Lowell, which has a very interesting museum.

There's so much more, though

[dT]

kayitah ... on the Stronghold. definitely brother!

dT