A 144 challenge

[coeurrouge]

I agree too about Tsinolthos

[kayitah]

It seems to me that these images all show the same man. But which of the men whose names were mentioned - Laziyah, José Second, Tahnitoe - would have worn a medicine cap and a medicine cord?

I would say he's between thirty and forty, it's hard to tell. And if you look at the C. S. Fly images you will see that even the young Fun looks odd and not so young on some photographs because of its shading and because they probably had the sun in their faces, just like the Fly image at the lower right.

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[jeroen]

I am not sure the Fly images (obviously of the same man) and the Fort Marion detail image show the same person. I agree that it is extremely difficult to make definite conclusions... the man in the Fly images is a case in point; he is identified more on the same clothes and cap rather than his face, which is different in each Fly photo. Having done some research, I think the cap is not so much a medicine hat, but rather a war cap, which was more common in earlier times. My point is, wearing this cap, does not necessarily mean he is a medicine man.

[coeurrouge]

Mihtlo, Penjady and Perico, we need help to iendtify this men and the group brought with them. Identification I have or suggest:
1:Cathla (Colle)
2:Itsah-Dee-Tsa(José Second)
3:?
4: Kla-Esh (Chihuahua)
5:?
6:?
7: Nezulkide
8: Kas-Tziden (Nana)
9:?
10:?
11: Ulzana
12: ?
13: Lensee
14: Dodostenay

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[coeurrouge]

I have little identification, because no high resolution of this photo.

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[coeurrouge]

For the women at Fort Bowie I have this as identification or suggestion:
1: Taz-Ay-Slath (Geronimo's wife)
1':Her son
2:Tze-Gu-Jun/Huera (Mangas'wife)
3: Dohnsay (Geronimo'sdaughter and Dakheya's wife)
3':Nina Dakheya, her daughter
4: ?/Counteza (Taz-Ay-Slath's sister?)
5: Nah-Dos-Te (Nana's wife and Geronimo's sister)
5':?
6:?
6'?
7:? (Chihuahua's wife?)
7': Mable Chihuahua?
8:Ilth-Gazie (Chihuahua's wife)
8':Tom Chihuahua, her son
9:? (Ilth-Gazie's sister and Chihuahua's wife?)
9':Eugene Chihuahua?
10:Tascelona (Beshe's wife)
11:?
11':?
12: Neschila (?)
12': her son
12'': her teenage daughter
13:?
14:Nah-Zitz-Ohn (Mothsos' new wife)

8

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[coeurrouge]

Who were this women?
They seem to be with the group prisonner at Fort Bowie.

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[coeurrouge]

The woman with th red spot:
Could she be Nahn-Ish-Klah (Ulzana's wife)?

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[naiches2]

Answer for Coeurrouge: You don't have in your list144 name Massai, but Betzinez says what man went out May 1885 and later went in Fort Apache.
p. 143: "Massai was one of those who went with Geronimo... He deserted war party, returning to Fort Apache by himself ".

[coeurrouge]

I didin't know that Beztinez wrote that, I never read his book.

It maybe true, but I don't believe it because of his personnal history, especially with Geronimo and his followers.

Massai did not follow Victorio but Loco in 1878. He stayed at San Carlos and became a scout. He never joined Nana and Kaathenay in 1881.
When the majority of the Chiricahuas fled, he stayed with his family and his chief Loco. Also he was a policeman or scout yet. He wasn't at San Carlos on april 1882 when geronimo kidnapped Loco's band and Massai's family.
Angry, he went to the Sierra Madre to join Loco and when he could he came back peacefully with his family (maybe some were killed by Mexicans during the fly to Mexico).
He seemed to hate Geronimo as much warriors of Loco. I did not think he would follow Geronimo as the loyal scout he was.
It was the betrayal of Miles and US Government that made him a renegade, not the ideas or the influence of Geronimo.

So this is why I will not put him in the list of the 144. Unless more new things prove me that I am wrong.

[naiches2]

Apr 4, 2011 16:05:13 GMT -5 coeurrouge said:

I didin't know that Beztinez wrote that, I never read his book.

It maybe true, but I don't believe it because of his personnal history, especially with Geronimo and his followers.

Betzinez wrote good book and you need read it. Yes, he made mistakes, bul all made mistakes (and Ball, and Thrapp, and Debo, who agreed with Betzinez about Massai), I'm, for example.

[jeroen]

I agree with Coeurrouge on this one... In my opinion, Massai did not join in the 1885 escape, despite what such authorities as Thrapp, Debo and Ball stated in their books. I guess it was a minor lapse in memory of the otherwise reliable Betzinez (fine book btw) and Thrapp just repeated this mistake, and so did Debo.

[kayitah]

Apr 8, 2011 13:29:24 GMT -5 jeroen said:

I agree with Coeurrouge on this one... In my opinion, Massai did not join in the 1885 escape, despite what such authorities as Thrapp, Debo and Ball stated in their books. I guess it was a minor lapse in memory of the otherwise reliable Betzinez (fine book btw) and Thrapp just repeated this mistake, and so did Debo.

I don't think Massai (Ma-say, Ma-si) was with Loco's group when they were kidnapped by Geronimo's band. There's even a C. S. Fly photograph of Apache Scouts that may or may not include Massai, it's hard to tell since there are only two known photographs of him - both with Apache Kid and Rowdy. I have just started reading Grady McCright's "Last Apache Outlaw", which is supposed to be a historical novel about Massai. Not a bad read, but I'm not too much into novels when it comes to the Apache. I didn't know it was a novel when I ordered it, though the author states it's a "historical novel".

Such great work they did - Thrapp, Debo, and Ball - all of them made mistakes. And that's not something that's easy to avoid, since many of the reports are misleading and biased, including those of Eugene Chihuahua, James Kaywaykla, and Jason Betzinez. Still I think that Betzines' (Batsinas) reports are among the best.

[coeurrouge]

Fith Round,

Somme corrections, new names and some new faces.

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[jeroen]

Great job! Bit by bit we are getting there...