Geronimo

[jeroen]

Hey Dietmar,
I am looking forward to the Geronimo book that Utley is working on, hopefully he'll get some new info... until then Angie Debo's Geronimo stands out, so excellent choice! Meanwhile, I am working on the identification of all the Apaches in the train photo, I'll post my suggestions within a few days...
I love the new pic, have not seen it before, I would say these are Western Apaches rather than Chiricahuas... but I must agree that he really looks a lot like Geronimo...

[charlie]

About the famous train photo:
I confirm the identifications of the front row;
- second row (L to R): JASPER KANSEAH - YAHNOZHA - ZHONNE - AHNANDIA - TISSNOLTHOS - unknown - HUNLONAH - unknown - unknown - BESHE
- third row (only women, L to R): HAOZINNE - BIYANETA - NOHCHOLN - LEOSANNI
(not TAHDASTE)

[jeroen]

I agree with all id's mentioned by Charlie, and add two I am pretty certain of (Nahbay and Laziyah), that makes my identification of the band:
front row: Fun, Perico, Naiche, Geronimo, Chapo, Garditha
back row: kanseah, Yahozha, Zhonne, Ahnandia, Tissnolthos, unknown, Hunlonah, Laziyah, Nahbay, Beshe
The unknown warrior is either Motsos or Kilthdigai, they were both estimated to be about 35 years old.
In some prints of the train photos another unidentified Apache can be seen behind the third window.
third row: Haozinne, Biyaneta, Nohchlon and Leosanni (I agree Tahdeshte is not in the photo)

[charlie]

I agree about the unknown warrior beside Tissnolthos: he must be Motsos or Kilthdigai.
But are you sure about the others two unknown person? I don't think they are Laziyah and Nahbay, both 45 years old. Looking with attention the image, they seems to me rather two young women...

[shan]

Hi Dietmar,

yes your right, the close up of the man standing at the back looks remarkably like Geronimo, although somehow I doubt it's him.

Charlie and jeroen, you guys seem extremely knowledgeable about the various warriors in these photographs, where did you learn all this stuff?

I'm not sure if two of the last three people in the back row over to the right are in fact women, for although they are not wearing the headbands men liked to wear, you can see their legs, in which case they must be wearing the Apache version of a loin clothe rather than the long skirt the women would wear.

Not sure if I got this right, but is the man I know as Jolsany the same man sometimes called Ulzanna, or is he his son? Also, does anybody know what happened to him or Fun after Geronimo surrendered, I can't see either of them in any of the photographs taken after the surrender? As I said in another post, I'm not totally convinced that that is Fun sitting far left front row in one of the train photos, to me, the face looks different to the other photos I've seen of him.

Low Dog

[Dietmar]

Great discussion, thank you all.

Voila, I looked through my files and found another version of the Apache scout group photo:



Can anyone tell from the names written on the photo if it is possible that Geronimo was there?

[jeroen]

I agree with Shan that the two I identified as Laziyah and Nahbay are men, Apache women were extremely modest with clothes and they certainly would not have their picture taken with bare legs. Furthermore, the man I identified as Nahbay closely resembles a man who was photographed that same period in Texas who is positively identified as being Nahbay.
Besides, Beshe and Nahbay were brothers so it makes sense they would sit together for the picture.
This is the picture (cropped) I mean:



As for Laziyah, the remaining warrior is is clearly one of the elder men (as can be seen in clear prints of the train photo), and Laziyah is the only that fit when it comes to age.
Shan, I don't know about Charlie, but I have published a book on the Chiricahua and numerous articles about Geronimo, Cochise and others based on years of research that I do for my paintings. I want my work, both writing and painting, to be as historically and culturally accurate as possible.
As for Johlsanny, he was probably a son of Ulzanna, although the names get mixed up all the time. Ulzanna survived until 1909 but his descendants can still be found at Mescalero.
I have little doubt abaout Fun's identity. He was close to both Geronimo and Naiche and one of the bravest warriors. After the surrender he became heavily depressed and within a year commited suicide by shooting himself.
Dietmar, if the photo indeed was taken in 1875 in Camp Apache, it is probably not Geronimo, for he remained in the Chiricahua (Cochise) reservation that year. Besides the 8th infantry was a unit to which mainly Western Apaches were attached, particulary of the White Mountain groups. Still it is an intruiging photo and it really looks like Geronimo...

[kayitah]

Jun 25, 2009 8:01:54 GMT -5 Dietmar said:

Great discussion, thank you all.

Voila, I looked through my files and found another version of the Apache scout group photo:



Can anyone tell from the names written on the photo if it is possible that Geronimo was there?

my friend, I guess you're referring to the Apache with the number 7 above his head, wearing a white hat and an army coat. That's Chief Petone. He was much younger and didn't resemble Geronimo, but in that image, it makes the impression.

For more images of Petone, I will post some photographs in the next few days.

[shan]

Hi jeroen,

thanks for the information, somehow I'm not surprised to learn that about Fun. In some ways one wonders why this wasn't the sad fate of more of the apache warriors that surrendered with Geronimo, after all given the life they had previously led, { whether we approve of it or not, }being imprisoned and banished from the land they grew up in must have been devastating. Worse still was being asked to live a life that gave them no rewards and no sense of self worth.

It's interesting to see all those photos of Naiche, it seems that he, rather like Geronimo managed to somehow adapt and take on some of the ideas and culture of his captors. Nevertheless, I find it sad to see a wild proud man reduced to being a second hand version of a white man. Maybe I'm being a bit harsh and I'm sure others will disagree, but that's how I see it.

Jeroen, I too am a painter, and I feel the same as you about getting the paintings that I make that involve the Native Americans as historically and culturally accurate as possible. Do you have a website where we can see your works. You can find one or two paintings of mine that involve native Americans on my own website which is, www.shanart.com You have to go to the current button then the Indians button to see them.

Low Dog

[Dietmar]

Welcome Kayitah,

it´s very nice you joined us. You´re invited to participate in our discussions here.

Thank you also for letting us know about Petone. I know he is mentioned in some books, but I think I´ve never seen a photograph of him. Would be great if you can post some.

Best wishes

Dietmar

P.S.: Shan, you can find Jeroen´s website link at our contributor´s page at the main website.

[charlie]

Again about the two contested persons (men or women?). It's very strange: they are only the two without hat or bandana. Nahbay and Laziyah at the time already were important warrior....
They seem garments too much simply regarding the others. It's only my suggestion, obviously.

[jeroen]

Here is another one for identification. I am certain of Yanozha, Zhonne and Kanseah...

[jeroen]

I recently got this picture, but without identification. My guess it is Geronimo's son, Chapo... can anybody confirm this?

[grahamew]

I've seen him identified as Chappo - but also as Chatto!

[fillupe]

Jeroen - If you go to legends.websitetoolbox.com/file?id=514266 you'll find the companion photograph for the 1st photo you posted under reply#38. There are few different people in this one, maybe you can identify the other Indian standing next to General Miles. If you'd like a 300 dpi copy of that photo contact me. . .