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Post by jeroen on Nov 4, 2010 9:39:33 GMT -5
About a week ago, I finally got Edwin sweeney's new book "From Cochise to Geronimo; the Chiricahua Apaches 1874-1886". I am about half way now and I must say it is an impressive book! It is well researched and very detailed. Although I would like to finish it first, so far I think it is a definitive work. Sweeney agrees with a number of conclusions we have come to here on these boards and gives answers to a number of questions that remained unaswered here. For instance, the writer convincingly states that the man in white shown in a number of Fly photos (our mysterious man in white) is in fact Atelinietze, a close relative of Naiche (probably a son of one of Cochise's brothers or sisters) and the man for whom Naiche was waiting at Skeleton Canyon before surrendering to Miles in September 1886.
As in his earlier books on Cochise and Mangas Coloradas, Sweeney pays attention to many little known people who remained largely unknown in existing literature, but in fact played important roles in Chiricahua history, including Nahilzay, Cullah etc...
There are a few details that differ from some of the conclusions we have established here; the man we have identified as Fun in the Fly photos, in the book he is Tisna (Tsisnah), and Tsisnah in the image of Geronimo and three of his men, is identified as Fun. On the other hand, the image that is erroneously identified as Taza (in fact Noche) is at last corrected in printed material.
Would like to read what others think of the book and what other interesting details we can come up with..
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Post by naiches2 on Nov 4, 2010 14:13:34 GMT -5
I read this book to stampede of 17 may 1885  GREAT BOOK!!! All I need ;D - very readable and have a lot of rare information, especially Mexican and non-printed Apache sources. Everything illuminated  |
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Post by kayitah on Nov 4, 2010 15:49:19 GMT -5
Thanks to both of you for sharing your experiences and opinions!
Sounds interesting, the news about our mysterious man in white. But doesn't Goodwin (?) state that Adilnadzid is a man in his 40s? I will try to find it...
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Post by jeroen on Nov 11, 2010 4:03:00 GMT -5
Yes, according to Sweeney he was about 8 years older than Naiche, which would make him about 40 in 1886.
The book is so rich in detail, but one of its main merits, at least to me, is that it puts events and people in perspective. For instance, it shows that Naiche played a far more important part than is usually assumed, but there is no downplaying Geronimo either. Also, there is much attention for Juh and lesser known men like Pionsenay and Nolgee, all prominent in the years following the close down of the Cochise reservation.
And Sweeney gives a good insight in the situation and conditions at San Carlos, the fact that malaria was rampant and took the lives of many of Naiche's people (perhaps half of those brought in by Taza) was a main reason for many Chiricahuas to flee the reservation. It also, in addition to those killed in battle, explains why the total Chiricahua population decreased from about 1300 in 1874 to 500+ in 1886.
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Post by jeroen on Nov 15, 2010 4:52:03 GMT -5
In the book, the author is not hesitant to question statements of a number of Eve Ball's informants, including Asa Daklugie and James Kaywaykla, and he does so quite convincingly. For instance, he seriously doubts whether Lozen was indeed with Geronimo and Naiche to the very end, and whether she really was the legendary woman warrior as stated by Kaywaykla and repeated ever since...
Also, it is surprising to learn that Mangus was in fact a very active warrior, being a prominent man with Victorio and with Nana, for he is usually portrayed as a pacifist and a rather unimportant leader with a very small following...
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Post by jeroen on Nov 22, 2010 10:22:59 GMT -5
I have almost finished the book, and it is well worth the purchase. I do have a different opinion on some minor points, but over all it is one of the best books about the so called Apache wars, and certainly the most detailed. Having said that, the style of writing is at times a bit one sided; Sweeney clearly shows sympathy for the plight of the Chiricahuas, but still one sometimes gets the idea that the Indians were wrong in fighting two large nations (the USA and Mexico). There are numerous references to "Apache raids", " the Apaches muredered..." and "Apache depredations" and about "army patrols", "punitive actions by soldiers and scouts" etc... giving the impression that the Chiricahuas more or less brought all troubles on themselves.
Also, in my opinion, the role of general George Crook is a little overestimated. Sweeney closely follows Dan Thrapp here, and it appears like the commander had a grand plan how to handle the "Apache troubles" and had everything worked out in his head (making him an almost faultless hero). David Roberts, in his book "Once they moved like the wind" convincingly shows otherwise...
Finally, there are clearly some mistakes in the identifications of the "Geronimo/ Naiche group in front of the train" photo (Zhonne is said to be Tissnolthos for example)
Nevertheless , sweeney deserves all the credits for his enormous amount of research and publishing for the first time countless small but very interesting details...
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Post by Dietmar on Dec 6, 2010 12:01:46 GMT -5
Does anyone know how to contact Mr. Sweeney? I thought perhaps he would be interested to discuss some points of his book here with us.
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Post by naiches2 on Dec 6, 2010 14:31:54 GMT -5
I've been looking for his contacts, but found nothing ...  |
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Post by Dietmar on Dec 6, 2010 16:04:59 GMT -5
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Post by philrob on Feb 22, 2011 6:36:39 GMT -5
This is a major study, full of detail. It is my first Sweeny book but it will push me back to his otherworks on Mangas Coloradas and Cochise.
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Post by kayitah on Feb 22, 2011 8:07:23 GMT -5
In the book, the author is not hesitant to question statements of a number of Eve Ball's informants, including Asa Daklugie and James Kaywaykla, and he does so quite convincingly. For instance, he seriously doubts whether Lozen was indeed with Geronimo and Naiche to the very end, and whether she really was the legendary woman warrior as stated by Kaywaykla and repeated ever since... Also, it is surprising to learn that Mangus was in fact a very active warrior, being a prominent man with Victorio and with Nana, for he is usually portrayed as a pacifist and a rather unimportant leader with a very small following... Thanks for that insight, Jeroen. I was very pleased to see Sweeney quesioning some of Daklugie's and Kaywaykla's (and information. While both claimed that their tribe sees men like Chato and other Chiricahua scouts as traitors, it's actually only the Kaetennae and Geronimo factions that feel like that. Naiché, for instance, never had anything bad to say about Chato or any other Chiricahua scout for that matter. I love the book, even though there are a few misidentifications in the photograhps (Fun/Tsisnah, Zhonne/Tissnolthos). He writes affectingly and offers an abundance of NEW information. He raises questions, he explains, and he compares contemporary info/reports. I wish there was more about Ulzana and his raid, but overall, it is an excellent book! |
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Post by naiches2 on Feb 22, 2011 8:23:48 GMT -5
In the book, the author is not hesitant to question statements of a number of Eve Ball's informants, including Asa Daklugie and James Kaywaykla, and he does so quite convincingly. For instance, he seriously doubts whether Lozen was indeed with Geronimo and Naiche to the very end, and whether she really was the legendary woman warrior as stated by Kaywaykla and repeated ever since... Also, it is surprising to learn that Mangus was in fact a very active warrior, being a prominent man with Victorio and with Nana, for he is usually portrayed as a pacifist and a rather unimportant leader with a very small following... Thanks for that insight, Jeroen. I was very pleased to see Sweeney quesioning some of Daklugie's and Kaywaykla's (and information. While both claimed that their tribe sees men like Chato and other Chiricahua scouts as traitors, it's actually only the Kaetennae and Geronimo factions that feel like that. Naich�, for instance, never had anything bad to say about Chato or any other Chiricahua scout for that matter. I love the book, even though there are a few misidentifications in the photograhps (Fun/Tsisnah, Zhonne/Tissnolthos). He writes affectingly and offers an abundance of NEW information. He raises questions, he explains, and he compares contemporary info/reports. I wish there was more about Ulzana and his raid, but overall, it is an excellent book! I agree with all words!  ;D  |
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Post by jeroen on Feb 23, 2011 3:18:39 GMT -5
Yes... Don't know whether true or not, but I was told that the original manuscript by Sweeney was even larger and more detailed but unfortunately Oklahoma Press edited down to the present book... I'd love to read those extra pages (some 150 more)...
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Post by Second on Mar 13, 2011 13:45:50 GMT -5
Hello everyone, I just recvd an ISBN for my book and I have entered the last phase of publishing. My book is titled Second Jumper, searching for his bloodline. Written by Sigfried R. Second-Jumper.
It has taken me 5 yrs to write it. It starts out with the surrendering of the Chiricahuas and their journey to Florida as prisoners of war. While in Florida, my great grandparents were separated from the bulk of the Tribe and shipped to Cuba. An event witnessed by other prisoners, and recorded in their oral history and songs.
Also recorded and photographed by my family are my great grandparent’s arrival in Cuba, their struggles, sacrifices and accomplishments. Some of my great grandparent’s descendents began migrating to Florida, settling on the outskirts of the Florida Everglades. It was there that I discovered a Miccosukee Indian camp tucked deep in the swamps. Little did I know I was meeting the remnants of the only Unconquered Nation, The Florida Seminoles. In time I learned to master the art of breaking in horses, wrestling alligators, followed by 15 yrs of dancing and singing among them. These events were captured and will be shown with never before seen photographs.
Through their encouragement, I along with my family set out on a trip across country, in search of our long lost Apache relatives. A long journey that started in St. Augustine, FL, Oklahoma, Arizona, ended at the Mescalero Apache Reservation in NM. Upon arrival at Mescalero, I was welcomed and accepted by ex-prisoners of war, the Chiricahuas and ultimately my long lost relatives. Unaware of my past tribal history, I was inaugurated into the medicine circle as a singer for the Chiricahua Crown Dancers. It was there, that I have and continue to learn the traditional ways of the Chiricahuas. After many years of loosing members and traditions, we all decided to record and preserve our ways along with our daily activities for future generations. For the first time ever, the reader will enter into the sacred tepee of the Crown dancers and learned what takes place prior to ceremonies. All of it has been done with the consent of all members.
When the Seminoles learned that I was recording these stories, they asked me to include theirs as well. Some of these tales and photographs have been kept by members of both groups for decades as family treasures. I am honored to have been trusted to write them as they were told to me. All stories were reviewed by all participants prior to publishing to assure that they are told as they would want their great grandchildren to hear them.
Unlike many or most books written about these two groups, this one is done from within. As a result, the participants felt comfortable revealing stories long suppress by fear and mistrust. There is only half a page of references and over 300 pages of the real stories of the Tigers of the Human race, the Chiricahua Apaches and the Only Unconquered Nation, the Florida Seminoles.
I have dedicated my book to future Chiricahua and Seminole descendents but it really pertains to all humans as preserving their ancestral ways is just as important.
I will keep you all posted as soon as my book is available.
Sincerely,
Siggy Jumper
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xframe
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by xframe on Sept 21, 2011 12:53:43 GMT -5
Just a quick one. Is it still the wish from most of the members here to get in contact with Mr. Sweeny to discuss his latest work or to find out if there is a chance to get hold of the untold stuff for his latest book!?
I think the guy who does write his regular blogs: "Hiking Apacheria" - Jerry Eagan has a very good contact to Mr Sweeny. Pretty sure this source is a potential way to get in touch........
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;D 
