Satanta's Son

[tkavanagh]

Jun 6, 2012 23:17:04 GMT -5 suebaby said:

<snip> She is listed in the 1880 census ... Andy Lewis, agency name for Gray Goose...</snip>

Note (1): the "1880 census" mentioned above would be the US decennial census, there are (apparently) no surviving KCA annual tribal censuses for that year.

Note (2): There are two family names "Lewis" in the 1901 KCA FRB, both Comanche (e.g. Tom Lewis, White, father of Bob Otipoby, and 'Lame Lewis', a Mexican captive, probably 'Luis', father of Connywerdy. There is no 'agency name' listing for a Kiowa 'Andy Lewis'.

tk

[suebaby]

would like to know what was researched to find there is no agency name for
Andy Lewis? The Name LEWIS was never used on the reservation so that is
no suprise.

sue

[tkavanagh]

Jun 7, 2012 11:50:50 GMT -5 suebaby said:

would like to know what was researched to find there is no agency name for Andy Lewis? The Name LEWIS was never used on the reservation so that is no suprise.

sue

For the first question: as I have noted elsewhere, my immediate source is the FRB, the "Family Record Book." It is a compilation made ca 1901 to assist in heirship and inheritance problems that arose with allotment. I transcribed the Comanche parts of the Anadarko Agency's copy in 1982; the Lawton chapter of the Daughters of the American Revolution (DAR) made a fair transcript (they didn't have a good grasp of the native names, so mis-spellings are common) of the full KCA document in 1991, and kindly gave me a copy. That is the one I keep by my desk. I also have copies of the (mostly-) annual Kiowa Agency censuses, 1879-1901, from the Oklahoma Historical Society (microfilm # KA 1/1a]. I also have, separately, the 1901, 1904, 1917, and 1926 Comanche lists, and a 1942 combined KCA payment list.

For both the Comanche and Kiowa lists, I have made spreadsheets thru which I can compare the lists, one to the next, to track changes, additions (births/deaths), mistakes, probable name changes, etc. I started them to study the political-demographics, but the Comanche Cultural Preservation Committee has found them very useful for genealogy, and I have done several workshops with them. I have placed copies in the Lawton Public Library. {The versions on my webpage [http://mypage.iu.edu/~tkavanag/comtext.htm] are somewhat out of date, but I no longer have access to them to change them. ;-(}

I keep in mind that these were lists made by Anglos for Anglo purposes, and may not accurately reflect a native perspective. I am very watchful for possible bias and manipulation (e.g., names of adults which appear only after say 1895: Where had they been the previous decade? Were they alleged captives (cf "Tehan") trying to scam an allotment?)

As for the second question, I'm not sure how to respond. The English name "Andy Lewis" would be an agency name. What you are looking for, I suppose, would be any native name associated with the agency name "Andy Lewis". That is the problem: there is no agency name "Andy Lewis" for Kiowa with whom to try to connect a native name.

tk

[suebaby]

What I am looking for is a Military Name, the name Andy Lewis was never used on the
reservation and I don't expect it to be there. Thank you for sharing your info, I have been
told the first time Gray Goose used his father's name was in the 1879 census, it is supposed
to be in the Family Record Book, in Lawton Library. I have not been there, but hope to make
it someday. He died in 1894, no allotment to check out. I have a limited means to search, but
will continue. I also have no way of knowing how they would have spelled Satanta, I have seen it several different ways. Thanks again, suebaby

[tkavanagh]

OK, I think I’ve got it. I was sorta confused/confusing, and probably even wrong, in previous conclusions.

Way back in 2010, I wrote:
<quote>
(Mandy) At Me Ponyah [spelled in the FRB: Atumpoheya (I despise the syllabic hyphens and refuse to use them)], aged 23 in 1901, family number 27, allotment number K2409. She was married to (as spelled in the FRB) Tonekiahquodle, aka Howard Sankadota, allotment K2468.

Further examination of the FRB gives that Atumpoheya was the daughter of “Sietintel (White Bear”) and “Soantin.” Note: the father was White Bear, not Tselotso, and the mother is not Zonety.”
</quote>

Today, suebaby wrote: <snip> “I have been told the first time Gray Goose used his father's name was in the 1879 census...”</snip>

<light bulb!> *used his father’s name*: look for ‘White Bear’, not Sal.../Tsa../Gray....

So last night, I took my own advice, ignored the DAR’s FRB spellings and my own potentially mistaken transcriptions, and went back to my copies of the original Kiowa Agency census documents [PDF of OHS microfilm roll KA-1]. I put them together with some things in this thread that I had overlooked and I think I’ve uncovered a solution to our problem:

First the data:

While I can’t find anything (yet?) of immediate relevance on the 1879 list,

-the 1883 census list has (at # 358) Sitinte, with one woman and a boy; [note: the 1879 thru about 1885 KCA censuses list by name only the head-of-household, all others in the family are simply enumerated.];

-the 1883-85 list has (again at # 358) Sitinte, one woman and a boy, with the boy’s mark crossed out;

-the 1889 census has (at #539):
# Name Sex Age
539 Sitints M 39
Toauno F 41
Atumponyoh F 10
Quoopaty M 8

-the 1895 list has (at #48) Atumponyo, but none of the rest of the family;

-by 1901 Atumponyo had married Howard Sankodota and they have started a family (FamNum 27). [Note: the DAR’s transcript of the FRB has her allotment as “2409,” it is *2469*, in line with the rest of the family (#s 2468-2471)];

Thus we have:
Atumponyo was the daughter of a man Sitinte, ‘White Bear.’ But this Sitinte could not have been the man who died in the Texas prison in 1878; indeed, this Sitinte was apparently alive through at least 1889, although not in 1895. Note suebaby also said, “He died in 1894”, as did the rest of his family. [I’m not sure, but I think there was an epidemic that year.]

Solution: this Sitinte was the young man known to Will Soule as Saloso, aka Tsaulaute.

While I have not been able to confirm that the name Sitinte was used in 1879 [possibly because ’79 would have been too close to the father’s death for the son to start using his name, unless it had been publically given to him while the father was still alive] but the name was in use by 1883.

The earliest reference to his age is in 1889, wherein he is listed as being 39, giving a birth year of 1850; thus he would have been in his early 20s during Will Soule’s and W.P.Bliss’ sojourns at Ft Sill.

Note: the 1889 census has Sitinte’s wife , the apparent mother of Atumponyo, as ‘Toauno,’ not ‘Soantin’ as in the FRB. Whether this difference is due to bad transcription by the DAR, or to the existence of two female partners for Sitinte [after all, his father apparently did have at least 4 wives] is unclear at this time.

Also note the ages given in 1889 for Atumponyo (10) and Quoopaty (8). They were old enough to have been enumerated four years earlier, ca 1883-85, but why weren’t they? Could it be that they and their mother were enumerated, but not named, elsewhere?

Just sayin’

tk

[suebaby]

Thank you! I know you put a lot of time into this and I appreciate it. Emily Satepauhoodle
is the person that told me she found Tsaulaute using Satanta's name in the 1879 records.
She did a lot of the work at the Smithsonian Inst. Emily passed away before I knew enough
to ask her which name it was, or how it was spelled. Tsalaute only had one child, a daughter.
I don't know about a boy. The other question we are trying to figure out is where was he
in the years 1877 to 1881 or some of that time. We can't place him on the reservation. You
have a lot of information and have saved me a lot of time looking, especially when I don't know what I am looking for as far as the name spelling. Emily did make the remark that she
had no idea he took his fathers name until she saw this census. This made the whole family
story of Satanta being our grandfather possible, it was the son, not the Chief--so the hunt
goes on and I can't thank you enough. If I understand your message the name did not show
up until 1883, story goes he was in Texas late 1877 off and on until 1881. Sara Rollins on
Ancestry.com has a private tree. It has 5000 names and they are all verified. If you ever need
to ask her anything, send her a message through Ancestry. I think the tree is Native American
Indians.

thanks again, suebaby

[tkavanagh]

Loose ends.

Jun 10, 2012 17:03:57 GMT -5 suebaby said:

<snip>She did a lot of the work at the Smithsonian Inst.

<ding!>

Since I used to work at the Smithsonian, this sat in the back of my head for a day or two, ruminating. OK, let’s see: Smithsonian ... Kiowa. That would be James Mooney. He was in Oklahoma, ca 1891-1901. He might even have known Saloso/Setinte.

Where would I go to find more? Of course, The National Anthropology Archives (NAA). [ This is me (l) and Ray DeMallie at the NAA in 1969. www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=147693401955358&set=a.130332200358145.20770.100001440965030&type=3&theater

And then I remembered, “A Guide to the Kiowa Collections at the Smithsonian Institution,” by William Merrill, Marian Kaulaity Hannson, Candace Greene, and Frederick Reuss [SI Contributions to Anthropology, No 40, 1997).

And there in the Index: “Saloso (Grey Goose), see Settinte II.” [note spelling: two tt]

Under Settainti II, there are four document entries, three photo entries, and one artifact . Of the photos, one is Soule’s Saloso, two are copies thereof. The four document entries are essentially references to field notes: notes on painted tipis, shields, camp circle, and “unprocessed field notes.”

The artifact, listed as 245013, is one of Mooney’s model painted tipis. These models were made ca 1898 by a number of Kiowa painters, not necessarily the owners (See Ewers “Murals in the Round,” 1974). Many were based on earlier notes. However, number 245013 is to a “Morning Star tipi model", and seems to have nothing to do with either Settainti. On the other hand, number 245008 is a red tipi, and is associated with a Settinti (apparently also so referenced in the field notes on tipis), although which one is not indicated.

Mooney’s “unprocessed field notes” may be a fruitful resource. I have been meaning to get back in there anyway.

tk

[suebaby]

tk, oh my, I don't know what to say. I guess if I had explained what I was looking for before
now it would have saved me a lot of time. I can tell you I will never make it to the Smithsonian
and I envy your knowledge, appreciate everything you have shared and will always be grateful. I will try to look up what I can and keep working on it. I am convinced Grey Goose is
my great grandfather, I just need to link the name Andy Lewis, and prove he was in Texas
during 1877 to 1881 or so. He also was said to have came to Texas from Abilene Kansas with a man that had taken a heard of cattle to Abilene, the person's name is Will Duncan. He was the uncle of Catherine Tomerlin. I also have wondered if Grey Goose ever saw his Dad in prison, Medina County is not very far from Houston. Anyway, thank you again for taking the
time to research this and think about it, not many people would.
suebaby

[cinemo]

Hi suebaby,

do you know the book : Bad Medicine and Good : Tales of the Kiowas, by Wilbur Sturtevant Nye,
first edition was in 1962, reprinted in 1997

In this book is mentioned Satanta and Tsa`l-au-te on various pages. Maybe you can find in this
book a few more details about Satanta and his son.

This is only a hint, I own that book not ( Index of the book online read )

Greetings from Germany - cinemo

[suebaby]

Hello cinemo,

No I am not familiar with this book, but I am searching for it. I am so glad to get any leads
and will certainly follow through. I am going to Ft Sill in Lawton Ok next week and will read
the book before I go, maybe get a few more hints to follow. I am glad you are following the posts or I would have missed out on a new lead, thanks so much---and

greetings from the Lone Star State----suebaby

[cinemo]

Here is another book about Satanta : Satanta and the Kiowas, by F. Stanley - published in 1968
Publisher : Jim Hess Printers / 391 pages

Presumably, this book exists only antiquarian, but I am not sure. Maybe you can find that book in
a library

I wish you a safe trip to Oklahoma and good luck for your research. Have a good time.

greetings - cinemo

[suebaby]

cinemo

Thank you again, I am hot on the book trail. I will let you know how the trip and research
goes, as always, if you think of anything else, I will be glad to follow up and really appreciate
the tips---Never been to OK, looking forward to it, my sincere thanks,

suebaby, Bastrop Texas

[Dietmar]

The Oklahoma Historical Society has this photo on display:


Big Bear, son of Satanta

It is again attributed to Soule, although I know many scans there are labeled incorrectly.

Is there any information about this alleged son of Satanta? Or is it again Saloso?

[grahamew]

Wonder if this is the same figure in the background of the Satanta photo posted here. Strange perspective, though...

amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=kiowa&action=display&thread=416&page=2

[tkavanagh]

<snip>Big Bear, son of Satanta </snip>

FWIW:

-There is no "Big Bear" on the Kiowa 1879 census.
-The only other so-far-deduced son of Satanta (aka Sitinty) is Auchiah, mother Sahtomah, born about 1872.

Thus, unless this person, if he was a son of Satanta, died before 1879, he is mislabled.

I don't think its Saloso/Tsaulaute; his face is too broad.

I don't think it's a Soule ether.

tk