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Post by Second on Mar 11, 2017 22:11:08 GMT -5
The following information has come to me from various sources, but mostly from the people themselves, members of the Navajo and Apache tribes. I will do my best to explain why Apaches recruited Navajos in their times of conflict. I hope my explanation is not offensive any Athapaskan people. Most of the information came from elders, and I know that they never preserved their stories, other than passing it down orally. I feel that is my duty to preserve it in writing, as I have seen way too many stories die with the people.
The Athapaskan (Dine, the people) migrated from the North in Alaska, settled in Northern NM, around what is today Farmington, NM area. It is believed that when the Spaniards arrived in the Southwest, the Dine saw them as a real threat and agreed to split themselves in order to survive the inevitable clash. It was said, that when this threat was over,the people will reunite and they will know themselves by their songs. As the groups migrated, they settled in the areas known today as western Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and Northern Mexico. These migrating groups were named Apachu, a Zuni word meaning, Enemy. The Apaches that settled in Southern New Mexico, in what is Today Monticello, NM, called themselves Chihine, Red Paint People, after the Red Paint Canyon, found there. They would become known as Ojo Caliente, Warm Springs Apaches, after a warm springs found next to the Red Paint Canyon. Their peaceful living ended when the new wave of new comers, white settles began arriving in search of copper, gold and silver. Once again, the Dine, who became the Inde, (still meaning the people) agreed to subdivide again in order to survive the inevitable clash of cultures. The majority chose to relocate into the deep canyons of the Chiricahua Mountains,thus becoming the Chiricahua Apaches. During times of fighting, Apache leaders like Victorio would recruit (kin) blood relative warriors from places like Mescalero, Alamo Navajo Reservation, in Socorro, NM, a place not far from Ojo Caliente. In the beginning Apaches had what we will call Navajo names, their names changed later into Spanish names, after centuries of contact with the Mexicans. Today some Apaches still carry those Navajo names.
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Post by Second on Mar 9, 2017 10:57:52 GMT -5
Thank you Coeurrouge and Mithlo. Just got back from a Fort Marion,Fort Pickens and Mount Vernon trip and came across that picture. Learned a lot about Fun, got to see his sleeping quarters in Fort Pickens and pay my respects at the Mobile National Cemetery, where he is buried and listed as Larry Fun but his tombstone is misspelled as Lanny Fun. I am sad to report that another piece of Chiricahua history is gone. Mount Vernon Barracks in Alabama has been declared unsafe and fenced in, except for the front gate, which has a huge sign of no trespassing enforced 24/7 by a Security Officer. The only thing left from that era, is our stories and old pictures. Will be glad to post some pictures of Fort Pickens and Mount Vernon if anyone is interested.
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Post by Second on Mar 6, 2017 21:56:51 GMT -5
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Post by Second on Mar 5, 2017 21:56:43 GMT -5
Hello everyone. I have not been here in a while. Logged in today and saw Jose Second's name mentioned. I read through most of the member's postings and came to the conclusion that I dont have enough knowledge to even try to identify the mysterious capped man, some times identified as Jose Second, Ulzana, etc. I will share the little info I have on Jose Second in hopes to help those with more knowledge perhaps come to a conclusion. We most all understand that a lot of knowledge is shared in the journey of coming to a conclusion or not. Jose Second: Two Apache boys were captured by Mexicans at an early age. The Mexicans named them Jose Primero and Jose Segundo, which translates to Jose First and Jose Second. They were not kin. Both captives learned to speak Spanish and both escaped as young adults (age or year unknown). They joined the Chiricahuas in the Stronghold,suggesting to me that he was a Chokone. Jose Second's sister married Larry Fun. When Naiche and Taza took the people to San Carlos, the two friends registered as Jose First and Jose Second, some times misspelled as Hosea Segunda, as seen in various articles found at the St.Augustine Historical Society Library. Jose Second's first wife was a Chihine, (warm springs) named Hua-nah and a daughter named Ku-kah. Could this have had an influence in the way he painted his face during battle, red vs white face stripe? I will leave that to the experts. It would make sense if he was fighting under Victorio or Loco that he would paint his face stripe red and white if fighting under Cochise, Naiche, Chihuahua or Ulzana. Again, a subject for the experts. Jose Second chose to fight under Naiche during the outbreak of 1884. Jose First became a Scout under Chatto. For the first time, the two inseparable friends, became enemies. Jose Second surrendered with Chihuahuas group and sent to Fort Marion,FL where he served as interpreter, between Spanish and Apache. His wife and daughter were sent to Cuba as servants, a common practice for more than a century. His family went to the town of Guanabacoa, known as Indian Town. Jose Second along with five other Chiricahuas were discharged from Mount Vernon, Alabama. Jose and Chiricahua Jim were the two that stayed in Mescalero. The others re enlisted in order to re-unite with their families as prisoners. Jose Second enrolled in Mescalero as a widower. He married Carabuda, a Mescalero woman. They had two sons, Manuel Jose Second and Frank Second. Manuel married May Peso, daughter of Chief Peso. Frank married Aletha Choneska, a mescalero woman.
The photo taken at Fort Marion showing a big group of Chiricahuas, with Nana and Jose Second to the left and Chief Chihuahua to the right is from a photo collection taken by Fort Marions's "Fort Keeper", Mr.F.W. Bruce. The photos were found in the attic of Mr. Bruce's sister's home and turned over to Mr. C. Powell in 2006, who later gave them to me. The photos are old and unfortunately a better resolution is not possible.
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Post by Second on Mar 5, 2017 17:19:48 GMT -5
Larry Fun did commit suicide in Mount Vernon, Alabama and he is buried at the Mobile National Cemetery. His name is misspelled as Lanny Fun, March 8,1892. Jasper Kanseah Sr., did not commit suicide. He made it to Mescalero, NM with the rest of the Chiricahuas in 1914. He lived in White Tail and died in Mescalero in 1959.
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Post by Second on Feb 20, 2016 16:39:36 GMT -5
To dT, Wishing you a good journey.
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Post by Second on Jan 29, 2015 10:59:25 GMT -5
Thanks for responding Kayitah. I appreciate the other images you posted.
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Post by Second on Nov 13, 2014 22:54:27 GMT -5
Hello everyone! Wondering if anyone has seen pictures of the two brothers, Pionseney and Skinya?
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Post by Second on Oct 28, 2014 8:46:26 GMT -5
Any photos of Pionseney and/or Skinya?
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Post by Second on Oct 3, 2013 20:10:05 GMT -5
After asking many elders and hearing others talk. I have come this conclusion. The Inde, Dine, (the people) came here from Canada. They settled in what is today the States of NM, eastern Arizona and western Texas. After the arrival of the Spaniards, they became known as Navajos. The Dine saw the arrival of the Spaniards as a real threat. They subdivided into groups and headed in different directions. If you look at a map you will see that they didnt settle that far at all, but far enough and roughed enough to be safe. You can almost draw a horizontal line and find the sites they chose to settle in. It was said that when the thread of the intruders was over, we will reunite. We will always know who we are by our language and our songs. The biggest group settled in at Ojo Caliente. They called them selves Chihine, other Indian Tribes called them Apachu, (Enemy) Thus the name Apache was born. After the arrival of white settlers, they subdivided again. The ones that remained became known as Cooper Indians, Canada Alamosa Indians, Warm Springs Apaches. The ones that settled in the Chiricahuas became known as the Chiricahua Apaches and so forth. Spaniards reported that the Navajos were farmers. Victorio descendents have stated that Victorio and his people were planting crops at Ojo Caliente. The soldiers rode their horses thru the crops, thus infuriating Victorio and causing him to up-rise. Descendents of Massai have said that Massai was raising crops at Ojo Caliente with his Mescalero wife and children. Apache raiding was a result of many factors, the main one being on the run, a deep hate for Mexicans and negative results at their attempts at farming as mentioned above. Anyone that knows an Apache or a Chiricahua Apache to be more specific quickly learns that they are loving, peaceful,kind and the list goes on. The media made them look like wild animals. u.S. Generals described them as the Tigers of the Human Race. The bottom line is they were regular people forced to fight and defend their land. It was their terrain that made it almost impossible to capture them. The Seminoles of Florida, the only Unconquered Nation, achieved their title by hiding in the swamps. Today these two Nations stand far apart from others that didnt have such roughed refuge.
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Post by Second on Sept 29, 2013 17:46:20 GMT -5
Hi to everyone! I'm reading the book of Alicia Delgadillo about the bios of war prisoners, and about Asa Daklugie i read that he, Naiche and Eugene Chihuahua feel to made a terrible mistake to press chiricahua for go to Mescalero, and they wrote to the governement asking for a new removal of the Chiricahua. Why this feels? Do you Know something about this matter? Read more: amertribes.proboards.com/thread/1630/chiricahuas-mescalero-reservation#ixzz2gK7HWF6kUlzana. This is the first time I hear of Chiricahuas feeling that they made a terrible mistake by going to Mescalero. I have interviewed plenty of Chiricahua descendants and White Tail natives and I have never heard them express those feelings. I have heard from all of them, that conditions were harsh the first few years. The high altitude, cold weather, lack of shelter and food tested their endurance to their limits. Things got better as they started cultivating the ground, raising cattle and building two bedroom tin roof homes. It is very possible that the three leaders may have re-considered their decisions to relocate and or have chosen White Tail as their place for adobe.
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Post by Second on Sept 29, 2013 16:36:13 GMT -5
Mithlo how did this two Comanche ladies Totite and her daughter Herwanna Hositosavit ended up in Fort Sill. I know that Herwanna ended up in White Tail with Eugene Chihuaha and her grandson, 4 y/o Vernon in the 1940's.
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Post by Second on Sept 28, 2013 22:52:56 GMT -5
Mithlo who are the two Indians on the back row. I understand one of them is George Koweno, which one is he? Was he a Comanche?
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Post by Second on Sept 28, 2013 22:41:16 GMT -5
Great job Mithlo. On behalf of Vernon Simmons, thank you very much.
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Post by Second on Aug 9, 2013 13:25:12 GMT -5
Hello Jasper4! Wanted to ask you about the clans of the Warm Springs. I have never heard of them, specially the Willow Clan as being or having been the largest. Respectfully, Second
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